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Thread: Appeal to Emotion

  1. ISO #1
    Wants It More Arete's Avatar
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    Appeal to Emotion

    Hello,

    In the past few months, several players have observed an increase in the use of extreme Appeal to Emotion (ATE) in games. While obviously some level of emotional appeal can be a legitimate strategy, some people have expressed frustration with the level to which it has risen, as well as with a perception that many/most games essentially turn into an ATE contest rather than actual solving. Furthermore, there is significant disagreement in the community about what forms of ATE are acceptable, and in particular what forms of ATE are acceptable for wolves, and some players have reported feeling frustrated due to a perception that ATE is considered acceptable when it comes from villagers but not when it comes from wolves (which they believe goes against the general principle that wolves should be allowed to fake anything that villagers are allowed to post).

    I believe it would be helpful to clarify where the line is on acceptable use of ATE, and if necessary to consider revising the rules to better promote a healthy, fun game environment. (Even if no changes are made, a simple "this is where the line is, this is how it applies to wolves" post would be beneficial.)

    Sincerely,
    Arete

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    Wants It More evakyoo's Avatar
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    I think AtE is perfectly fine as either alignment, you can’t get by with just AtE rather then solving anyways. And if you do make it through like this… then that’s on town for not calling you out.

    I myself am an emotional player. I cannot help what feelings I feel when I come onto the thread. Removing AtE or putting restrictions on it as both alignments would make the game a lot harder for me.. and the game would just become a lot more textbook.

    So yeah. Both alignments can do it and wolves who use it shouldn’t be shamed, rather those who believe it should be. You just have to learn what emotions are faked and if the emotion can be given from both alignments!
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  3. ISO #3
    Penalty Box Syn's Avatar
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    AFAIK this is already a rule and already taken action on. You just need to report it and explain why. It helps if the game state is affecting more than your own personal enjoyment, because that means there's something more actionable for the mods to do.

    This kind of AtE also becomes vastly less effective if you stop letting it work. It's used because of its effectiveness. Ignore or dismiss the AtE you feel is unethical. If the AtE has impacted game health, report.

    I do think the mods should maybe take a harder line on AtE, in the sense of removing players from games when they employ that cloying "golly gee this game has destroyed my life" approach or they completely fly off the handle and start being aggressive.

    I don't think charged emotional appeals ("please trust me I'm a villager, I'm crying, please") should be banned or taken action on. Just refuse to let it sway you. It's obnoxious, but again, it's used because it works. If it doesn't work, the only people who do it will be people who aren't long for the mafia world anyway.

  4. ISO #4
    I think wolves gotta wolf and (almost) everything is fair game because for villagers ~everything is fair game

    I am sure there are a lot of cases where people are willing to go far further as villagers than wolves but imo if you are willing to do X as a villager but not as a wolf then thats problematic ...and maybe you shouldnt be willing to do X as a villager in the first place
    .

    my 2 cents

    also think it should be a self-policing community process rather than putting down rules. Just too much grey area

  5. ISO #5
    GOAT Tier Macdougall's Avatar
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    My personal plan is to just request people take breaks when emotion is getting the better of them, explaining that it's not conducive to positive game solving, and over time making note of people who continue to let their emotions infect games and avoiding games with those people who persistently do it. If everyone sick of ate did that it'd stop people doing, or at least those that did it would only be playing with people who don't care which is fine.

  6. ISO #6
    Soul Reader Centuries's Avatar
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    Honestly AtE for me is kinda gray. At times it feels like you're weaponizing OOG stuff for your own agenda, I don't want FM to become something where 60% of the game mentions how stressed they are / how they will quit FM if they get miselimd, I don't want to be the dude who causes you to leave the community just because of my own actions even if 90% of the people won't follow through / lie about it. If I'm ever aggressive (keyword aggressive NOT mean*) with you, it's a purely game-related thing and you shouldn't feel bad if you make a mistake.

    *(This isn't me saying I'd ever be mean to you on purpose)

    I don't really know tbh, I'd rather have extreme level of AtE not to ever happen but if you think what's game is game then I would understand your thought process. From now on I'll try my best not to care even if it has at times helped me find villagers. Not for the sake of winning but for the sake of a healthier community overall? I overall agree with the general sentiments of the thread, try to dissuade people from doing it rather than making rules, if it gets real bad maybe warn people but I don't think it'd be a good thing to outright ban it

  7. ISO #7
    Wants It More evakyoo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Macdougall (#5)
    My personal plan is to just request people take breaks when emotion is getting the better of them, explaining that it's not conducive to positive game solving, and over time making note of people who continue to let their emotions infect games and avoiding games with those people who persistently do it. If everyone sick of ate did that it'd stop people doing, or at least those that did it would only be playing with people who don't care which is fine.
    i can agree with this
    thanks mac
    Quote Originally Posted by Anniversary (#15449)
    Quote Originally Posted by Villager (#15397)
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  8. ISO #8
    Soul Reader Happy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arete (#1)
    Hello,

    In the past few months, several players have observed an increase in the use of extreme Appeal to Emotion (ATE) in games. While obviously some level of emotional appeal can be a legitimate strategy, some people have expressed frustration with the level to which it has risen, as well as with a perception that many/most games essentially turn into an ATE contest rather than actual solving. Furthermore, there is significant disagreement in the community about what forms of ATE are acceptable, and in particular what forms of ATE are acceptable for wolves, and some players have reported feeling frustrated due to a perception that ATE is considered acceptable when it comes from villagers but not when it comes from wolves (which they believe goes against the general principle that wolves should be allowed to fake anything that villagers are allowed to post).

    I believe it would be helpful to clarify where the line is on acceptable use of ATE, and if necessary to consider revising the rules to better promote a healthy, fun game environment. (Even if no changes are made, a simple "this is where the line is, this is how it applies to wolves" post would be beneficial.)

    Sincerely,
    Arete
    Picking where to draw the line is the hard part though, it feels like it’s gonna be really hard to police even if such a line was made

  9. ISO #9
    Soul Reader Master Radishes's Avatar
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    Do you guys ever formulate thoughts in your head, only to argue with yourself and find a counterpoint, and then a counterpoint to that counterpoint, etc?

    This is why I should never be in charge of stuff. Too indecisive.

    I may or may not come back with a treatise on this topic.
    Last edited by Master Radishes; October 27th, 2021 at 08:14 AM.

  10. ISO #10
    Wants It More GGhana's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syn (#3)
    AFAIK this is already a rule and already taken action on. You just need to report it and explain why. It helps if the game state is affecting more than your own personal enjoyment, because that means there's something more actionable for the mods to do.

    This kind of AtE also becomes vastly less effective if you stop letting it work. It's used because of its effectiveness. Ignore or dismiss the AtE you feel is unethical. If the AtE has impacted game health, report.

    I do think the mods should maybe take a harder line on AtE, in the sense of removing players from games when they employ that cloying "golly gee this game has destroyed my life" approach or they completely fly off the handle and start being aggressive.

    I don't think charged emotional appeals ("please trust me I'm a villager, I'm crying, please") should be banned or taken action on. Just refuse to let it sway you. It's obnoxious, but again, it's used because it works. If it doesn't work, the only people who do it will be people who aren't long for the mafia world anyway.
    good to see another comrade has become as emotionally stunted as a war veteran thanks to this hell game
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    DONT RULE THE WORLD

  11. ISO #11
    I'm aware of several instances recently in which a player has used really heavy AtE and then subbed out immediately afterwards. This is really problematic because it would be cheating to sub out for strategic reasons, so the action of subbing out is basically mechanical confirmation that the player was being completely truthful about all of the things they said. And I think that when this happens in a very obvious manner it should be treated as a violation of the rule about announcing that you are going to sub out. Even if a player doesn't explicitly say that they are going to sub out, the inference is extremely obvious if they make posts about how much the game is making them miserable and then an hour later there's a new player in their slot.

  12. ISO #12
    τη καλλίστη Makaze's Avatar Administrator
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    Quote Originally Posted by soah (#11)
    I'm aware of several instances recently in which a player has used really heavy AtE and then subbed out immediately afterwards. This is really problematic because it would be cheating to sub out for strategic reasons, so the action of subbing out is basically mechanical confirmation that the player was being completely truthful about all of the things they said. And I think that when this happens in a very obvious manner it should be treated as a violation of the rule about announcing that you are going to sub out. Even if a player doesn't explicitly say that they are going to sub out, the inference is extremely obvious if they make posts about how much the game is making them miserable and then an hour later there's a new player in their slot.
    This scenario already violates the rules about subbing out for inappropriate reasons regardless of what they have said in the thread about it.
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  13. ISO #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Makaze (#12)
    Quote Originally Posted by soah (#11)
    I'm aware of several instances recently in which a player has used really heavy AtE and then subbed out immediately afterwards. This is really problematic because it would be cheating to sub out for strategic reasons, so the action of subbing out is basically mechanical confirmation that the player was being completely truthful about all of the things they said. And I think that when this happens in a very obvious manner it should be treated as a violation of the rule about announcing that you are going to sub out. Even if a player doesn't explicitly say that they are going to sub out, the inference is extremely obvious if they make posts about how much the game is making them miserable and then an hour later there's a new player in their slot.
    This scenario already violates the rules about subbing out for inappropriate reasons regardless of what they have said in the thread about it.
    There was a discussion about this a while ago on Discord in which some people strongly felt the opposite.

  14. ISO #14
    τη καλλίστη Makaze's Avatar Administrator
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    Quote Originally Posted by soah (#13)
    Quote Originally Posted by Makaze (#12)
    Quote Originally Posted by soah (#11)
    I'm aware of several instances recently in which a player has used really heavy AtE and then subbed out immediately afterwards. This is really problematic because it would be cheating to sub out for strategic reasons, so the action of subbing out is basically mechanical confirmation that the player was being completely truthful about all of the things they said. And I think that when this happens in a very obvious manner it should be treated as a violation of the rule about announcing that you are going to sub out. Even if a player doesn't explicitly say that they are going to sub out, the inference is extremely obvious if they make posts about how much the game is making them miserable and then an hour later there's a new player in their slot.
    This scenario already violates the rules about subbing out for inappropriate reasons regardless of what they have said in the thread about it.
    There was a discussion about this a while ago on Discord in which some people strongly felt the opposite.
    Regardless of their feelings, it is a violation of the current rules. Individual cases may be judged differently, but if you sub out because of circumstances in the game, you are violating the rules as stated.
    I hold you in the highest regard, my friends.


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  15. ISO #15
    GOAT Tier Apogee's Avatar
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    Hi! A number of you have probably seen me talk in discord about chunks of this too recently, but I figured reiterating and going deeper into a few things here probably made sense, because I fully agree with the Arete and the other people here who both think the AtE recently is out of hand and that the current rules are kind of unclear one way or another.

    -------------------------------------

    So, first, to talk about my personal views on AtE policy. I view what should be acceptable content to post in the thread on kind of two principles:

    1. Anything villagers can and do post, wolves should both be allowed to post and to fake.
    2. There are posts and actions I don't want to exist in a game of mafia -- we play mafia to have fun and a fair game, and some posts impede one or both of those goals.

    In practice, this means a few things. For example, some posts, like posting your role pm, or threatening another player IRL, or talking about mod communications (or really integrity breaches in general) are obviously not good things to have in game threads, and should just be unacceptable to post outright; this follows from principle 2.

    But, for example, in some games discussing your character's flavor is allowed. And well, if it is something villagers are allowed to post about in the thread, I'd argue wolves have to be allowed to both post about flavor and be able to fake their flavor. This is where principle 1 comes in.

    Now, these are pretty uncontroversial takes at this point AFAICT. But, with AtE, it gets a lot more hairy.

    I tend to think that people do not like having a ton of AtE in the thread on both a game enjoyment and game-playing level. At least, each of the three games recently I have seen with notably and extreme AtE (champs finals, pokemon mash, constellations team mafia) there have been several or more slots that have really rough, unhappy, and unfun experiences due to the AtE deployed by other slots.

    I think its not particularly wrong to imply that in general, people do not like having extreme AtE in thread? I think some emotions can be healthy, and useful to see! Thoughts like "I'm really annoyed with how people are pushing here, I'm taking a break" or "this game is stressing me out, can people chill a bit with the aggressive pushes?" But generally, I think once it gets to the point of making other players feel guilty, or starting to feel the negative emotion themselves, then it is pretty clearly a negative thing to have in the thread.

    Another aspect to this is that AtE often leads to a really uncomfortable situation, where, as a player in a game observing someone else AtE, it is literally impossible to call someone a wolf without invalidating part of their mental state. If they are going on and on about how crushed they were to see villagers die, or that they are so scared village is going to lose and that's impacting them mentally, any push HAS to invalidate these emotions in order to consider the player as a wolf. I don't think I have to explain why this is at least uncomfortable regardless of everyone's alignment. I'll talk about this more in a bit.

    So, those are principle 2 reasons to limit AtE. But, there are also principle 1 reasons it should be constrained (for much the same rationale Ladd outlined). A common mindset on MU right now is "wolves don't tend to fake AtE, but they can have emotions" which is tied up in the similar notion of "you can't call my emotions fake in thread or you are a terrible heartless person." But, at least in my opinion, this is a problem. If wolves aren't really able, willing, or socially permitted to fake really extreme stuff (which, for the record, I don't think they should be for reasons above!) then villagers posting that stuff shouldn't either, because you shouldn't make posts that could only come from one alignment. And the idea that emotions aren't AI is kind of bogus, especially since actually reading into emotion and approaching it critically is considered damaging to some.

    My personal standard I use for deciding to post something or not is pretty similar to Ladd's above, or just principle 1 but inverse, which is "if I wouldn't fake it as a wolf, I shouldn't be posting it as a villager." And, well, since there are posts I don't want to fake as a wolf, because I'd feel bad doing so, there are equivalent posts I shouldn't post as a villager.
    ----------------------------------------------------

    So yeah, I think extreme ATE is bad for a number of reasons. Actually defining what is extreme is a lot harder. I think guilting people directly with AtE is bad, and should probably stop. The difference between "this game is making me stressed" and "Apogee and Porygon-Z pushing on me is making me stressed" is pretty huge imo. The second is leveraging OOG emotions to try to create a change in game in a direct fashion. But this definition like, doesn't really sit perfectly with me because I think there are gamestates where like, there needs to be a change due to how people OOG are being affected, because I tend to think if gameplay (not AtE) is causing emotional stress then it should change a bit? Maybe that's a different discussion, I guess I just think that we can have a bit of a stricter standard even though it is hard to define. The other thing I'd think makes AtE extreme is like, multiple paragraphs, or multiple posts, continuing deeply into your IRL mental state that have limited other purpose besides trying to leverage that in some way (even posts that claim they aren't trying to leverage emotions, do, in fact, tend to be trying to leverage emotions, which is why they are in the thread).

    ----------------------------------------------------

    Another part of this, that I'm not sure how many people agree with, is that a lot of AtE budges up against OGI, in my opinion? I'm quoting from the MU OGI rules here

    Quote Originally Posted by Newcomb (#11)
    The spirit of the rule regarding OGI is essentially this: no one should ever post anything that isn't about the game that a second player could reasonably make an alignment read based on.
    Quote Originally Posted by Newcomb (#11)
    For example, saying you're going to bed, or going to miss the first 24 hours of a day for RL reasons, or that your cat is on fire, are perfectly acceptable statements. (Though MU strongly encourages you to expeditiously assist your cat instead of posting about it in a mafia game.)

    When you make such a statement, however, it is required to be alignment agnostic. No one should be able to plausibly read anything about your alignment into anything you say about your RL status.
    To me, it seems definitionally that discussing IRL emotion, or for that matter IRL events, overmuch toe the line here? This goes back to the notion of like, having to say someone's expressed IRL emotions are fake in order to not read them as a certain alignment? Again, I'm not really satisfied with this, because "reading people in the game" obviously involves reading into their expressed emotional state -- "boy, Apogee seems really down after the wolf got killed yesterday, that's kind of wolfy" -- but again, it's kind of rough or at least a line that in some circumstances needs probing.

    I do think there is a question here about how much emotion about the game is about the game, because it might be a valid interpretation of this that your RL emotions, or mental state, or how much you've cried or stressed or whatnot is part of the game. But yeah, I think its worth a discussion and some clarification of how the MU staff see the intersection of OGI and AtE.

    ----------------------------------------------------

    One final point: I've seen kind of "just don't read into AtE, its NAI, etc etc" as kind of an alternative to actually changing rules regarding it. So, first off, I don't really agree reading into AtE doesn't have actual AI results, but let's assume for now that there is no benefit to AtE. Why, in that case, would we want extreme AtE around at all? Small amounts of AtE probably do make thread health better in some circumstances, but the heavy, multiparagraph stuff, if its not AI, doesn't do anything besides make the thread and players feel worse. So, in this case, why not just keep it out of thread altogether?

    And I do see the difference between "wanting things kept out of thread" and "thinking the rules should ban them from thread" but I think in this circumstances some oversight would be useful.

    ----------------------------------------------------
    So, I think there should be a genuine discussion of a) where the MU rules on AtE currently are b) where they should be and c) if there are other steps that can be taken to alleviate it?

    One thing I've seen on the syndicate when kind of passing through is games that have a moderator or like, semi-co-host that is there to serve as an outlet to players? Not sure if that's something feasible for MU to implement, or if syndicate people think that it has served a good role and might be worth replicating, but it seems like a reasonable, non-rule based argument in theory.

    But, regardless of the rules, people should tone down the AtE, ask themselves if doing so is going to hurt the experience of other players, and try to avoid things that would do so.


    ----------------------------------------------------

    TL;DR: If you're a villager, on a personal level I don't think you should post AtE you wouldn't fake as a wolf. Otherwise, does really heavy AtE serve a positive role in the game, is it something we want in the game, and what should the policies of MU be to trend in that direction?
    Last edited by Apogee; October 27th, 2021 at 11:58 AM. Reason: spelling

  16. ISO #16
    Soul Reader Alison's Avatar
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    In the absence of moderator intervention, AtE can be policed by players. Ignore posts with heavy AtE - pretend these posts do not exist. If the AtE continues, policy exe the player in question. Do they claim that they are having a breakdown IRL and that the game is destroying their mental health? Well, you should only sign up for mafia games if you are prepared to be voted out. That's on them. Your job is not to manage their mental health. Ignore them, kill them and move on. As time goes by, players who use AtE will either reform their ways or stop playing in your games; either alternative is good for you.

    In the past people used to policy other players for behaving in unacceptable ways. These days people are far more afraid to do that, and wonder why unacceptable behavior is on the rise.
    There's nothing that says a fake can't surpass the real thing.

  17. ISO #17
    Wants It More Guillotina's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by soah (#11)
    I'm aware of several instances recently in which a player has used really heavy AtE and then subbed out immediately afterwards. This is really problematic because it would be cheating to sub out for strategic reasons, so the action of subbing out is basically mechanical confirmation that the player was being completely truthful about all of the things they said. And I think that when this happens in a very obvious manner it should be treated as a violation of the rule about announcing that you are going to sub out. Even if a player doesn't explicitly say that they are going to sub out, the inference is extremely obvious if they make posts about how much the game is making them miserable and then an hour later there's a new player in their slot.
    Yah, this is a form of tactical sub out which shouldn't be allowed. There is a rule that prohibits it but it is still too open for interpretation. I think hosts should enforce it in more detail in their own games. I've seen an increase of this lately due to new players coming from communities that have never played their games at their sites with angleshooting and OGI rules in place.

  18. ISO #18
    Wants It More Guillotina's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alison (#16)
    In the absence of moderator intervention, AtE can be policed by players. Ignore posts with heavy AtE - pretend these posts do not exist. If the AtE continues, policy exe the player in question. Do they claim that they are having a breakdown IRL and that the game is destroying their mental health? Well, you should only sign up for mafia games if you are prepared to be voted out. That's on them. Your job is not to manage their mental health. Ignore them, kill them and move on. As time goes by, players who use AtE will either reform their ways or stop playing in your games; either alternative is good for you.

    In the past people used to policy other players for behaving in unacceptable ways. These days people are far more afraid to do that, and wonder why unacceptable behavior is on the rise.
    Because we are living in a society and community where speaking certain truths can hurt people's feelings and get you banned, even if you didn't mean to hurt those feelings.

    I believe the hosts should interfere more when it comes to AtE, I'm already writing some rules and procedures for my own games, it's taken me a fair bit to grow a player base that enjoy and want to play my games, so I can't personally let someone ruin that.

    But I agree with you, in the absence of mod intervention, AtE should be policy yeeted.

  19. ISO #19
    Soul Reader KnightsofCydonia's Avatar
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    I think something we need to develop more awareness about is discerning the line between an abrupt emotional outburst and a concerted AtE effort. I'm seeing people talking about policing as if players who have sudden mental health swings were planning to tilt out or have panic attacks. I don't appreciate this kind of language and I think this kind of assumption does more harm than good. Treating all incidents under the same blanket policy and pulling no punches on someone who is already getting punched by their own brain is an easy way to make things worse.
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    Quote Originally Posted by soah (#11)
    I'm aware of several instances recently in which a player has used really heavy AtE and then subbed out immediately afterwards. This is really problematic because it would be cheating to sub out for strategic reasons, so the action of subbing out is basically mechanical confirmation that the player was being completely truthful about all of the things they said. And I think that when this happens in a very obvious manner it should be treated as a violation of the rule about announcing that you are going to sub out. Even if a player doesn't explicitly say that they are going to sub out, the inference is extremely obvious if they make posts about how much the game is making them miserable and then an hour later there's a new player in their slot.
    Subbing out a player because they no longer want to play is bad hosting
    Quote Originally Posted by TripleHaven (#284)
    HEY $%#!S
    Since some people obviously don't know this, even though it should be BASIC COMMON SENSE, I guess i have to point it out. if you are PR, and are about to be misyeeted, YOU NEED TO CLAIM. You need to claim with at least 45 seconds, preferably 1 minute left so that people have time to refresh and unvote you. If you claim at 30 seconds, if you claim at 15 seconds, if you don't claim at all, YOU WILL BE MISYEETED. PR staying alive is extremely important for town. There was a post on the general mafia forum about win rates when PR is yeeted D1 in turbos and its 1/14 or some $%#!.

    I'm not going to call this gamethrowing, because some new players might not understand how important PR is to a setup, and others come from sites where you can't claim as PR. But please, for the love of god, claim if you're being killed. Thank you.

    Copypasta over.
    Quote Originally Posted by King Bowser (#5246)
    Just picture King Bowser wearing baggy cargo pants, and trying to shove an enormous fluffy and supremely enraged kitty into his pockets all game, and all that happens is the cat keeps biting him and clawing him and tearing up his scaly flesh, while hissing and screeching with rage the whole time.

    Yet King Bowser is just as stubborn and insists the kitty goes in his pocket, despite numerous failed attempts.

    In the end, kitty was never pocketed. Did not survive the process, but left Bowser bloody and shredded and looking quite the fool.

    Then everyone else in town is like, dude, Bowser, what happened to your faaaaaace. And your cat.

    I uh... cut myself shaving. I'm still totally townie, honest.

    That is the legend of Goat Cat.

  21. ISO #21
    Soul Reader Alison's Avatar
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    I have seen a few instances where people AtE like crazy, sub out, and then they turn out to be wolf.
    There's nothing that says a fake can't surpass the real thing.

  22. ISO #22
    Soul Reader Alison's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KnightsofCydonia (#19)
    I think something we need to develop more awareness about is discerning the line between an abrupt emotional outburst and a concerted AtE effort. I'm seeing people talking about policing as if players who have sudden mental health swings were planning to tilt out or have panic attacks. I don't appreciate this kind of language and I think this kind of assumption does more harm than good. Treating all incidents under the same blanket policy and pulling no punches on someone who is already getting punched by their own brain is an easy way to make things worse.
    If being voted in a game of mafia makes you "get punched by your own brain", then you should reconsider signing up for mafia games. However, everyone in this thread is speaking about heavy AtE - it is clear that nobody is referring to a sudden "yo, this sucks, I can't believe you all think I'm scum!" as being policyable. We are talking about an entirely different phenomenon.
    There's nothing that says a fake can't surpass the real thing.

  23. ISO #23
    Wants It More Adam's Avatar
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    i think we just had the starkest evidence possible that breaches along these lines will never be moderated, even when they're self-described cheating

    the people who cause problems fall in one of three categories in my experience:
    1. the "fighter"s, who genuinely think their emotional problems are your problems because you signed up to play with them. these people are still allowed to play, so it actually starts falling on you to pick and choose who to join games with
    2. the people who know they're crossing a line and do it anyway, sometimes with a little empty atonement after the game
    3. the only group you can personally effect change in: people who would do it as either alignment and see it as another part of the game, completely fair, not bothersome in any way. just let them know it's a bit much / ask they tone it down a little, and they typically do

    1 and 2 are different flavors of "i'm an emotional player". follow that with "deal with it" for group 1, some pathetic apology for group 2
    3 is mainly comprised of experienced, competent players

    being an "emotional person" is completely outside of this. emotional people are more readable than a random user, but they're not problems. they're nicer to play with than most people, imo

    my rec is to figure out which groups you can deal with / want to deal with. avoid the rest. whatever you do, avoid arguing with the people who just want to defend everyone from any accusation because being friendly is more important to them than living in reality

  24. ISO #24
    GOAT Tier bearsquared's Avatar
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    I don't play that much on MU these days, but I still have thoughts on this topic because I still haven't learned how to shut the $%#! up in my nearly 30 years on this earth.

    I think AtE (Appeal to Emotion) gets conflated with just general emotions coming up (or being faked) in a game. In my mind there is a distinction even if it's subtle and not much of a difference at times. An appeal-to-emotion is a specific kind of tactic that often times is intended to evoke guilt like "these stupid villages always misyeet me I'm literally crying right now why can't I be townreads?!?!?!", and it's specifically made with the intent of influencing the game. General emotions could be the previous example lacking the intent to influence the game (it still $%#!ing sucks though), but is more generally just emotions coming through like being excited after shooting a wolf in ITAs or coming off a little salty when someone is tunneling you. In my mind both are fine in mafia games with the latter being both unavoidable from villagers and necessary for wolves to emulate. The issue for me (and for most people) with either or both of them as to do with how extreme it is.

    "these stupid villages always misyeet me I'm literally crying right now why can't I be townreads?!?!?!"

    Statements like the above, whether it's intentionally made by a player (regardless of alignment) in order to not die or if it's the real feelings of a villager, are kinda gross. We're all humans with emotions, and when someone makes a post like that it just sucks if you're a villager who think they're mafia or if you're mafia trying to misyeet them as part of your win con (this especially sucks because you know it's probably real). Like others (at least Apogee) mentioned, if you're going to push on a player that makes that kind of post you sort of have to call it fake which sucks for everyone involved. The whole situation just sucks.

    I'm not sure a rule can fix this though. Maybe this is something mods can police, but it seems icky. It just seems like any rule that's enforceable might be so vague players are unclear what's okay or not, and this introduces a whole new element of players making borderline posts and then the rule maybe comes up ITT (which I think would itself be against the rules). I think it would have some unpleasant side effects in short.

    I don't really know if there's a comprehensive solution that works for everyone, but I think that having a conversation and course correcting with social/cultural norms might be the best solution in the long run. I try my best to keep my composure in mafia games, and try to filter posts to avoid things that will make others feel bad for trying to advance their win con in good faith. I think bringing it up ITT when someone crosses the line to some extent sucks, but that might be the only way to shift things.

    Honestly having an article written that has examples of things are generally accepted to be okay and not okay emotional display wise with some context of like "this really sucks the fun out of it for everyone" might be a useful resource here idk.

    TL;DR: emotions =/= AtE, neither are good or bad, the former is inevitable and must be faked by wolves, the latter is generally fine too, extremes of either are fun sucks and should not make their way into the thread. Idk if a rule makes sense, but perhaps some kind of article or resource to serve as examples of what is and is not going to taint the thread could be helpful.

  25. ISO #25
    Soul Reader MartinGG99's Avatar
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    I honestly feel like this discussion won't make much of a difference, as both making a rule and not making a rule on ATE have their consequences:

    -Not making a rule will obviously allow for Forum Mafia to run its course as a social deduction/deception game and people who have ATE will at some point have their emotions suspected and questioned; their feelings will be subjected to viewpoints that don't recognize nor validate them until post-game.

    -Making a rule banning X ATE inherently invalidates (by definition of it being a rule) a person's legitimacy as a Forum Mafia player when they conduct said X ATE. If you play FM normally with full of deep emotions, you're going to get indirectly called an illegitimate or poor-playing player and thus invalidated in that sense. Your feelings are saved, but I would imagine being implied as an illegitmate player (or a player who plays with illegitimate means) is going to generate negative experiences in-of-itself.


    If it were up to my personal bias in this matter, I think not making a rule (aside from out-right toxicity that is akin to cyber-bullying or otherwise) is more preferable as there is time for reconciliation and understanding afterwards. You can't necessarily do that when there's a rule that still exists post-game that invalidates your play. I also think you necessarily have to accept or recognize the risk of being questioned in-game in any game that has social deception or deduction elements in it; it's unavoidable once that ATE is made. On the other side of the coin, I also think anyone who plays FM has to accept there will be ATE in some games that they encounter. After all, it is a social game. If you're concerned about addressing ATE too harshly then you can reconcile post-game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Makaze (#14)
    Regardless of their feelings, it is a violation of the current rules. Individual cases may be judged differently, but if you sub out because of circumstances in the game, you are violating the rules as stated.
    On a separate note, I think to some degree players should be able to sub-out of games due to in-game circumstances if they're new. Playing a social deduction/deception game for the first few-ish times I imagine is going to be especially challenging on a psychological level for most people and I feel saying to new-er players that they can't sub-out could cause some level of trauma. I would think that many people just aren't mentally prepared for this sort of thing, especially if they already have other psychological conditions to deal with (such as MDD). You could hypothetically say and warn them all you want about how challenging a forum mafia game may be, but many people (especially if they're not full adults) may not be capable of fully understanding and respecting that until they actually experience a game of it.

  26. ISO #26
    GOAT Tier Apogee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MartinGG99 (#25)
    Making a rule banning X ATE inherently invalidates (by definition of it being a rule) a person's legitimacy as a Forum Mafia player when they conduct said X ATE. If you play FM normally with full of deep emotions, you're going to get indirectly called an illegitimate or poor-playing player and thus invalidated in that sense. Your feelings are saved, but I would imagine being implied as an illegitmate player (or a player who plays with illegitimate means) is going to generate negative experiences in-of-itself.


    If it were up to my personal bias in this matter, I think not making a rule (aside from out-right toxicity that is akin to cyber-bullying or otherwise) is more preferable as there is time for reconciliation and understanding afterwards. You can't necessarily do that when there's a rule that still exists post-game that invalidates your play. I also think you necessarily have to accept or recognize the risk of being questioned in-game in any game that has social deception or deduction elements in it; it's unavoidable once that ATE is made. On the other side of the coin, I also think anyone who plays FM has to accept there will be ATE in some games that they encounter. After all, it is a social game. If you're concerned about addressing ATE too harshly then you can reconcile post-game.
    I mean, I’m not sure I find this particular point too compelling in both a theory in practice sense?

    As in, 1) I don’t think there are many players who build their mafia play style around the ability to actual and/or fake AtE.

    2) I do not think that is a fun and conducive play style to have be in games, and would not be upset if 1-2 people who did want that to matter felt “invalidated”.

    3) The rules already prohibit certain playstyles and “invalidate” them. On other sites, maybe you are incredibly good at tracking peoples other online activity and making reads off of that, which is prohibited here. Maybe you are really good at writing fake role pms to post as a wolf, which is a skill that is never used in MU. Having some skills not be ones that we let be exercised in games is fine.

  27. ISO #27
    Soul Reader MartinGG99's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Apogee (#26)
    Quote Originally Posted by MartinGG99 (#25)
    Making a rule banning X ATE inherently invalidates (by definition of it being a rule) a person's legitimacy as a Forum Mafia player when they conduct said X ATE. If you play FM normally with full of deep emotions, you're going to get indirectly called an illegitimate or poor-playing player and thus invalidated in that sense. Your feelings are saved, but I would imagine being implied as an illegitmate player (or a player who plays with illegitimate means) is going to generate negative experiences in-of-itself.


    If it were up to my personal bias in this matter, I think not making a rule (aside from out-right toxicity that is akin to cyber-bullying or otherwise) is more preferable as there is time for reconciliation and understanding afterwards. You can't necessarily do that when there's a rule that still exists post-game that invalidates your play. I also think you necessarily have to accept or recognize the risk of being questioned in-game in any game that has social deception or deduction elements in it; it's unavoidable once that ATE is made. On the other side of the coin, I also think anyone who plays FM has to accept there will be ATE in some games that they encounter. After all, it is a social game. If you're concerned about addressing ATE too harshly then you can reconcile post-game.
    I mean, I’m not sure I find this particular point too compelling in both a theory in practice sense?

    As in, 1) I don’t think there are many players who build their mafia play style around the ability to actual and/or fake AtE.

    2) I do not think that is a fun and conducive play style to have be in games, and would not be upset if 1-2 people who did want that to matter felt “invalidated”.

    3) The rules already prohibit certain playstyles and “invalidate” them. On other sites, maybe you are incredibly good at tracking peoples other online activity and making reads off of that, which is prohibited here. Maybe you are really good at writing fake role pms to post as a wolf, which is a skill that is never used in MU. Having some skills not be ones that we let be exercised in games is fine.
    I agree with #1, but I differ on the point of #3. I don't think those comparisons are relevant because those plays (such as activity watching) aren't related to something inherent in human nature. ATE is naturally connected to emotion, and so there's going to be some whether we like it or not. For online activity watching, you don't (or really shouldn't) feel a natural need to express yourself in the form of online stalking. But we realistically cannot control our emotions; people with enough practice can control how they react as a result of their emotions, but I think it would be foolish to expect the rule is going to prevent people from ATE'ing since its related to emotion . Someone's going to do it, and they're going to feel invalidated much more than someone who hypothetically comes on the site openly activity-watching.

    I will note that we already do out-law any sort of aggression and/or personal attacks, which is indeed related to emotion, but I also feel that is fundamentally different to most forms of ATE. This is because often times personal attacks or ATE infused with insults often can cause more harm to others than it would for us to say "its not okay to do this" because such insults hurt other people. Comparatively, If I am saying that I'm crying or whatever over my soon-to-be elimination then that's not really going to hurt anyone else.
    Last edited by MartinGG99; October 27th, 2021 at 03:52 PM.

  28. ISO #28
    Quote Originally Posted by TripleHaven (#20)
    Quote Originally Posted by soah (#11)
    I'm aware of several instances recently in which a player has used really heavy AtE and then subbed out immediately afterwards. This is really problematic because it would be cheating to sub out for strategic reasons, so the action of subbing out is basically mechanical confirmation that the player was being completely truthful about all of the things they said. And I think that when this happens in a very obvious manner it should be treated as a violation of the rule about announcing that you are going to sub out. Even if a player doesn't explicitly say that they are going to sub out, the inference is extremely obvious if they make posts about how much the game is making them miserable and then an hour later there's a new player in their slot.
    Subbing out a player because they no longer want to play is bad hosting
    Nonetheless, I have always had the impression that most hosts process all sub-out requests unconditionally. There aren't any formal guidelines for how hosts should handle that type of situation. Plus, as I mentioned above, some people believe that it's perfectly valid to sub out of a game if you're not enjoying it.

  29. ISO #29
    GOAT Tier hollowkatt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by soah (#28)
    Quote Originally Posted by TripleHaven (#20)
    Quote Originally Posted by soah (#11)
    I'm aware of several instances recently in which a player has used really heavy AtE and then subbed out immediately afterwards. This is really problematic because it would be cheating to sub out for strategic reasons, so the action of subbing out is basically mechanical confirmation that the player was being completely truthful about all of the things they said. And I think that when this happens in a very obvious manner it should be treated as a violation of the rule about announcing that you are going to sub out. Even if a player doesn't explicitly say that they are going to sub out, the inference is extremely obvious if they make posts about how much the game is making them miserable and then an hour later there's a new player in their slot.
    Subbing out a player because they no longer want to play is bad hosting
    Nonetheless, I have always had the impression that most hosts process all sub-out requests unconditionally. There aren't any formal guidelines for how hosts should handle that type of situation. Plus, as I mentioned above, some people believe that it's perfectly valid to sub out of a game if you're not enjoying it.
    There have been times when continuing to play has been detrimental to my health either mental or physical.

    At that point the options are angle for a mod kill and risk being blacklisted, ask for a sub out and risk being banned or blacklisted, or work to get myself eliminated as quickly as possible, which is again, risk of being banned or blacklisted because I'm not playing to my win condition.

    That's why sub outs have to be on a case by case basis, and why there needs to be a moderation team that periodically reviews sub outs to determine if there's a game manipulating pattern developing, or if they are indeed unique occurrences.

    Sometimes things just tilt someone hard enough they cannot keep going and that situation has to be a situation you can get out of and it doesn't even need to be playing the game itself. IRL impacts us while playing more than we often give it credit for.

    I can remember a few games having to sub out D1 or shortly thereafter because my work situation drastically changed and my free time I expected to have for games vanished.
    At least one of those were wolf rands. Does it look like HK RWSTFO? yeah. Is that what actually happened? No.

    I think mafia is a game where emotions are going to come creeping forward no matter how hard we try to police them because other human beings are going to accuse you of being a liar, a bad guy, scum. None of these words have positive connotations and sometimes it's harder to keep that separated in teh context of the game than other times.

    Even those with the strongest sense of self and importance have weak moments where they'll lash out in response, or Appeal to others Emotions to try to make the case that they're not "scum" and sometimes that's because their self-worth slipped because of the accusations.
    We have to remember that our fellow players, adversarial or not, are human with their own emotions, and that we're human with ours.

    I'm not sure what my point is here other than to remember we're all people with feelings and feelings get super funky some times.

  30. ISO #30
    Soul Reader Alison's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by soah (#28)
    Quote Originally Posted by TripleHaven (#20)
    Quote Originally Posted by soah (#11)
    I'm aware of several instances recently in which a player has used really heavy AtE and then subbed out immediately afterwards. This is really problematic because it would be cheating to sub out for strategic reasons, so the action of subbing out is basically mechanical confirmation that the player was being completely truthful about all of the things they said. And I think that when this happens in a very obvious manner it should be treated as a violation of the rule about announcing that you are going to sub out. Even if a player doesn't explicitly say that they are going to sub out, the inference is extremely obvious if they make posts about how much the game is making them miserable and then an hour later there's a new player in their slot.
    Subbing out a player because they no longer want to play is bad hosting
    Nonetheless, I have always had the impression that most hosts process all sub-out requests unconditionally. There aren't any formal guidelines for how hosts should handle that type of situation. Plus, as I mentioned above, some people believe that it's perfectly valid to sub out of a game if you're not enjoying it.
    I process sub-out requests for players when I am hosting unconditionally. If they don't want to play, I can't and won't make them. If it's a sensitive situation (like if subbing out could clear them via emotion, or if it's LyLo and a replacement would drastically alter the dynamic of the game) then I would simply tell them that they can leave the thread and essentially 0 post from now on.
    There's nothing that says a fake can't surpass the real thing.

  31. ISO #31
    spec chat hero iaafr's Avatar
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    please dont create sitewide hard AtE standards; if you do i'm probably gonna cry

  32. ISO #32
    spec chat hero iaafr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bearsquared (#24)
    I don't play that much on MU these days, but I still have thoughts on this topic because I still haven't learned how to shut the $%#! up in my nearly 30 years on this earth.

    I think AtE (Appeal to Emotion) gets conflated with just general emotions coming up (or being faked) in a game. In my mind there is a distinction even if it's subtle and not much of a difference at times. An appeal-to-emotion is a specific kind of tactic that often times is intended to evoke guilt like "these stupid villages always misyeet me I'm literally crying right now why can't I be townreads?!?!?!", and it's specifically made with the intent of influencing the game. General emotions could be the previous example lacking the intent to influence the game (it still $%#!ing sucks though), but is more generally just emotions coming through like being excited after shooting a wolf in ITAs or coming off a little salty when someone is tunneling you. In my mind both are fine in mafia games with the latter being both unavoidable from villagers and necessary for wolves to emulate. The issue for me (and for most people) with either or both of them as to do with how extreme it is.

    "these stupid villages always misyeet me I'm literally crying right now why can't I be townreads?!?!?!"

    Statements like the above, whether it's intentionally made by a player (regardless of alignment) in order to not die or if it's the real feelings of a villager, are kinda gross. We're all humans with emotions, and when someone makes a post like that it just sucks if you're a villager who think they're mafia or if you're mafia trying to misyeet them as part of your win con (this especially sucks because you know it's probably real). Like others (at least Apogee) mentioned, if you're going to push on a player that makes that kind of post you sort of have to call it fake which sucks for everyone involved. The whole situation just sucks.

    I'm not sure a rule can fix this though. Maybe this is something mods can police, but it seems icky. It just seems like any rule that's enforceable might be so vague players are unclear what's okay or not, and this introduces a whole new element of players making borderline posts and then the rule maybe comes up ITT (which I think would itself be against the rules). I think it would have some unpleasant side effects in short.

    I don't really know if there's a comprehensive solution that works for everyone, but I think that having a conversation and course correcting with social/cultural norms might be the best solution in the long run. I try my best to keep my composure in mafia games, and try to filter posts to avoid things that will make others feel bad for trying to advance their win con in good faith. I think bringing it up ITT when someone crosses the line to some extent sucks, but that might be the only way to shift things.

    Honestly having an article written that has examples of things are generally accepted to be okay and not okay emotional display wise with some context of like "this really sucks the fun out of it for everyone" might be a useful resource here idk.

    TL;DR: emotions =/= AtE, neither are good or bad, the former is inevitable and must be faked by wolves, the latter is generally fine too, extremes of either are fun sucks and should not make their way into the thread. Idk if a rule makes sense, but perhaps some kind of article or resource to serve as examples of what is and is not going to taint the thread could be helpful.
    on a serious note i particularly agree with this post and an article on what things players might want to avoid as a matter of courtesy / gamehealth thing would probably be a good step towards this (and then you link it at people AtEing you and policy em in the face)

  33. ISO #33
    Wielder of the Triforce Wisdom's Avatar
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    A lot has been said. Still wanna share my thoughts, since I've been in a few games which has made me think about AtE in general.

    Feelings are fine. Emotional players are valid. I'm very much an emotional player as well. And with having emotions, frustration and ventilation is needed to cope.

    The thing is how. I can drop a discussion and take a break or ask to not be pushed for a little while and the thread health is fine. I can lash out and call someone terribad for pushing me and insult them while I'm at it. It ruins the thread health/player enjoyment and I'll probably get banned or at least warned. But then there's that zone, the guilt tripping, where I can't believe how you can treat me like this I thought we were friends I'm crying. It ruins the thread health. I can't remember seeing anyone get banned for it though, and well, maybe they shouldn't. But it's no fun to deal with. Wolves has to play like this as well for it to not become a truth tell, and I have to ignore it. I get that it hurts the players when they're reaching out and doesn't make people town read them. But it has to be a part of the game, it can't become personal.

    I think that's where I draw the line. Venting, explaining feelings, fine. Guilt tripping or shaming, not fine, regardless of alignment. If we struggle with having emotions so strong they become excessive and ruins other players enjoyment of the game, it's our responsibility to work with that, to learn how to cope.

    We are in general very respectful here. So let's keep helping each other with this, let's help making sure the games are enjoyable even when someone is having a tough time. We as a community can try to help each other not create an AtE-filled meta.
    PunchyTheCat: WHAT TEH ACTUAL $%#!ING WHAT THE ACTUAL WHAT WHO LET THIS HAPPEN WHY WISDOM WAS SOOOO TOWNY WTF

    Chloe: I'm never trusting you again Wisdom

  34. ISO #34
    Penalty Box Syn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iaafr (#31)
    please dont create sitewide hard AtE standards; if you do i'm probably gonna cry
    banned

  35. ISO #35
    Wants It More evakyoo's Avatar
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    just don’t be a $%#!ty person in thread lmao and if you encounter people like this don’t play with them. you can play your part in making the thread a more positive experience too lmao

    shouldn’t be banable though.. it’s up to you to sniff out the fake emotions

  36. ISO #36
    Wants It More Abraxas's Avatar
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    It's pretty annoying and should be heavily discouraged. I recall one game where I had a solid read on a player and they just appealed to their friend to not vote them cause they were pretending to be distressed. Very annoying (we lost to a coinflip after)
    Last edited by Abraxas; October 27th, 2021 at 07:41 PM.
    There was within me an invincible summer

  37. ISO #37
    Wants It More Insaner's Avatar
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    Someone called me petty for wolfreading them once

    Was kinda messed up
    Quote Originally Posted by Sett (#1873)
    Insaner living up to his name tbh.

  38. ISO #38
    Soul Reader Tsunami's Avatar
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    this idea that wolf emotions are "fake" seems to keep popping up -
    Quote Originally Posted by evakyoo (#35)
    it’s up to you to sniff out the fake emotions
    Quote Originally Posted by Abraxas (#36)
    they [wolves] were pretending to be distressed. Very annoying
    - and, uh. i don't agree?

    wolves, imo, don't tend to completely fabricate emotions maliciously for the express purpose of being townread

    like i don't think they sit in wolfchat cackling about ha, these suckers, they believe i'm crying my eyes out when actually im having a great time!*

    wolves have emotions, *real* emotions, too. wolves are just as human as villagers, and games can be just as stressful for both alignments; of course they suffer too. it hurts to have real emotion get called fake - for villagers AND wolves.

    But regardless of if you believe wolves have emotions, the idea that wolf emotions = fake is problematic imo. Because it leads to people feeling like if you push them, they must defend/prove their emotion is real. Which leads to posts that guilt you further, because how dare you not believe I'm crying???? And then their friends interpret you pushing on them as you not believing they are unhappy, and then they feel like they must defend their friend from the Mean Person Invalidating Them.

    which, uh. Is unhealthy for the thread and turns it into an awkward, unpleasant place to be. It creates mental blocks wrt pushing people that aren't about how towny they were or their content, but instead are about how if you push them, you would be agreeing that they were lying about being in emotional pain.

    *I do believe that emotions are part of a good wolf game, in that to seem like a villager you *must* act like one, and therefore act like you have a villager's mental headspace. Expressing sadness/guilt over a flipped villager you pushed, acting stressed in lategame or as misyeets pile up, acting happy while your team gets slaughtered... that's basic wolfing, tbh. Wolves can be proud of being village read for roleplaying villager emotional headspace well. They should be! That's not the problem at all, or what this thread is about; it's about /extreme/ ate, which is completely different and not something that should be okay from either alignment.
    --
    Wolves should never be expected to roleplay a villager having a serious emotional breakdown, because, uh. Once you get into emotions that feel more manipulative (ex. "you're making me cry!"), it is just a feelsbad regardless of if a wolf or villager is saying it... I don't know about y'all, but personally I don't like being guilted like this. I don't want to be put in a place where I cannot push or question someone without feeling like I am negatively affecting them in real life beyond reasonable (ie low) amounts and therefore am a bad person/mean/etc.

    idk it just makes thread pretty weh. We should be able to push our friends without worrying that doing so will destroy our out-of-game relationship with them (and be able to push with people we don't know and not have them hate us for it!). Don't put people in the position of having to try to judge whether extreme emotion is fake or not, because that will make both parties feel bad (it *hurts* to have real emotion be called fake! it also *hurts* to play emotion cop and feel you are Invalidating someone in a serious way).

    tldr: let's not call Extreme Emotion fake, or assume that randing wolf turns you into a robot incapable of real emotions. Also just don't put people in the position of having to evaluate your Extreme Emotion, keep it out of the thread / to a minimum because it hurts thread health.

    (alison and ate hardliners - i believe that if something is itt, it's part of the game and you're responsible for using it. it is also super hard to ignore posts that pull on your heartstrings, and can go against your wincon. policy yeets aren't the answer because that punishes your alignment.)

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    Wants It More Insaner's Avatar
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    wolves, imo, don't tend to completely fabricate emotions maliciously for the express purpose of being townread
    fwiw I always felt like it was more acceptable to AtE as a wolf than a villager

    So that I can later say "lol of course I was faking that $%#! who do you think I am"

    But I understand I'm in the minority here
    Quote Originally Posted by Sett (#1873)
    Insaner living up to his name tbh.

  40. ISO #40
    Soul Reader Tsunami's Avatar
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    that post is messy, sorry

    something related i wanted to put in but couldn't fit is that wolves, when forced to Emotion A Lot to match the villagers, often feel bad about being townread for their emotion

    it ruins the game for them too, and can make them feel like they didn't deserve a win as much because they got a "dirty" clear. which absolutely sucks, because wolves generally deserve their win when they win. and if they're being forced to ate to fit in with the villagers, then it's not their fault for deploying "dirty" strategies like iM cRyInG wAHHHH, it's just playing to their wincon. (When wolves initiate extreme atefests, uh. I don't like it, obviously. If it was their choice first to bring ate into the thread then it's on them.)

    tldr: Extreme Emotion is bad and ruins games, don't do it

  41. ISO #41
    Soul Reader Tsunami's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Insaner (#39)
    wolves, imo, don't tend to completely fabricate emotions maliciously for the express purpose of being townread
    fwiw I always felt like it was more acceptable to AtE as a wolf than a villager

    So that I can later say "lol of course I was faking that $%#! who do you think I am"

    But I understand I'm in the minority here
    mmm i can see that, but it puts the villagers in an unfair situation imo

    as i said, emotion within reasonable bounds is good wolfplay! but crossing lines should not be more okay as one alignment than as the other, either way it is crossing a line and unfair to the rest of the players who have to evaluate or otherwise deal with your outburst

    it would feel awful to lose to a wolf because they made you feel like a bad person for pushing them

  42. ISO #42
    Wants It More Insaner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tsunami (#41)
    Quote Originally Posted by Insaner (#39)
    wolves, imo, don't tend to completely fabricate emotions maliciously for the express purpose of being townread
    fwiw I always felt like it was more acceptable to AtE as a wolf than a villager

    So that I can later say "lol of course I was faking that $%#! who do you think I am"

    But I understand I'm in the minority here
    mmm i can see that, but it puts the villagers in an unfair situation imo

    as i said, emotion within reasonable bounds is good wolfplay! but crossing lines should not be more okay as one alignment than as the other, either way it is crossing a line and unfair to the rest of the players who have to evaluate or otherwise deal with your outburst

    it would feel awful to lose to a wolf because they made you feel like a bad person for pushing them
    Crossing lines is bad as either alignment I agree.

    It's just that as a villager I don't feel like I need to invoke the emotional stuff at all. I can just find the wolves and bury them.

    Whereas as a wolf I gotta bull$%#! my way to victory somehow
    Quote Originally Posted by Sett (#1873)
    Insaner living up to his name tbh.

  43. ISO #43
    Soul Reader Alison's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tsunami (#38)
    (alison and ate hardliners - i believe that if something is itt, it's part of the game and you're responsible for using it. it is also super hard to ignore posts that pull on your heartstrings, and can go against your wincon. policy yeets aren't the answer because that punishes your alignment.)
    See, I don't think policy yeets punish your alignment. I think policy yeets increase town's winrate, actually, and that people who engage in extreme AtE are in fact a horrific liability regardless of their alignment.

    I have also seen it expressed in the thread that it sucks to have to tell someone who is expressing strong emotion that they are actually faking it. Why? If someone puts something in the game thread they must expect to ne evaluated based on it. Don't feel bad about calling out emotion as fake and telling someone they are making it up, no matter how extreme the emotion is. They chose to put it in the game thread; ergo, tbey consented to having it scrutinized.
    There's nothing that says a fake can't surpass the real thing.

  44. ISO #44
    GOAT Tier bearsquared's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Insaner (#42)
    Quote Originally Posted by Tsunami (#41)
    Quote Originally Posted by Insaner (#39)
    wolves, imo, don't tend to completely fabricate emotions maliciously for the express purpose of being townread
    fwiw I always felt like it was more acceptable to AtE as a wolf than a villager

    So that I can later say "lol of course I was faking that $%#! who do you think I am"

    But I understand I'm in the minority here
    mmm i can see that, but it puts the villagers in an unfair situation imo

    as i said, emotion within reasonable bounds is good wolfplay! but crossing lines should not be more okay as one alignment than as the other, either way it is crossing a line and unfair to the rest of the players who have to evaluate or otherwise deal with your outburst

    it would feel awful to lose to a wolf because they made you feel like a bad person for pushing them
    Crossing lines is bad as either alignment I agree.

    It's just that as a villager I don't feel like I need to invoke the emotional stuff at all. I can just find the wolves and bury them.

    Whereas as a wolf I gotta bull$%#! my way to victory somehow
    I think as a either alignment it's an example of gamesmanship or bad sportsmanship, one of the two or both depending on the context probably. It's like someone getting gently bumped in professional soccer (football) or other sports, and then they collapse and grab their knee like someone just hit em with a tire iron. Yeah they're gonna get an in-game advantage from it, but it also sucks when a player goes down, is seriously hurt, and the crowd boos. The big difference here is we aren't getting paid and generally just have much smaller stakes and aren't getting physically injured. Feelings can get hurt though, and while the sentiment isn't exactly "suck it up buttercup", it is one of asking that player's be more thoughtful about how they express, and leverage, emotional displays in the thread.

    Tsunami described it pretty well in that good wolf play requires you to project an emotional state that is congruent with what a villager would be feeling. I think with wolves it's probably normal to embellish this a little because it's really hard to be subtle about it and communicate the right emotions believably. By doing the emotional equivalent of flopping regardless of alignment you probably can gain an advantage if well executed, no one is going to deny that, but if you do it and it makes the thread state $%#!, like, cool maybe you're gonna win more often but no one wants to play anymore.

    Extreme emotional displays — real, fake, half-real-half-fake, AtE, whatever — are actively unfun for virtually everyone involved. We, as a community, should probably build a culture where we use avoid using strategies that are unfun even if occasionally give up equity for our win con to do so.

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    Wants It More Insaner's Avatar
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    Ok I'll stop
    Quote Originally Posted by Sett (#1873)
    Insaner living up to his name tbh.

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    Soul Reader Alison's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bearsquared (#44)
    Extreme emotional displays — real, fake, half-real-half-fake, AtE, whatever — are actively unfun for virtually everyone involved. We, as a community, should probably build a culture where we use avoid using strategies that are unfun even if occasionally give up equity for our win con to do so.
    I largely agree with this but with a slight caveat. Normally when someone else engages in unethical behavior in a game you aren't supposed to follow suit. If someone flops in football you don't flop yourself, you tell the referee what they're doing and let the ref sort it out. If a townie posts their role PM and gets cleared for it that doesn't mean you're allowed to post your own fake role PM as a wolf, you contact the host and ask for a modkill or other compensation. But for AtE specifically I think if town all do it, wolves should be permitted to engage in it as well. It's not like you can contact the host and ask for a modkill if the designated misexe cried their way out of the guillotine.
    There's nothing that says a fake can't surpass the real thing.

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    Responsible for #8 Mistyx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alison (#46)
    It's not like you can contact the host and ask for a modkill if the designated misexe cried their way out of the guillotine.
    i have actually seen this happen but i think it was a particularly edge case

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    GOAT Tier bearsquared's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alison (#46)
    Quote Originally Posted by bearsquared (#44)
    Extreme emotional displays — real, fake, half-real-half-fake, AtE, whatever — are actively unfun for virtually everyone involved. We, as a community, should probably build a culture where we use avoid using strategies that are unfun even if occasionally give up equity for our win con to do so.
    I largely agree with this but with a slight caveat. Normally when someone else engages in unethical behavior in a game you aren't supposed to follow suit. If someone flops in football you don't flop yourself, you tell the referee what they're doing and let the ref sort it out. If a townie posts their role PM and gets cleared for it that doesn't mean you're allowed to post your own fake role PM as a wolf, you contact the host and ask for a modkill or other compensation. But for AtE specifically I think if town all do it, wolves should be permitted to engage in it as well. It's not like you can contact the host and ask for a modkill if the designated misexe cried their way out of the guillotine.
    I'm not making the argument here that wolves should be held to a higher standard at all. Ultimately I'm saying villagers and wolves should avoid $%#! like "im actually crying right now and im never talking to any of you or playing this stupid game again if you keep pushing me like this!!!! 😭🥺💢" If the village is just unhinged and causing a flood from tears then all bets are off at that point I guess idk, but that's sort of besides the point.

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    Wants It More Guillotina's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alison (#43)
    Quote Originally Posted by Tsunami (#38)
    (alison and ate hardliners - i believe that if something is itt, it's part of the game and you're responsible for using it. it is also super hard to ignore posts that pull on your heartstrings, and can go against your wincon. policy yeets aren't the answer because that punishes your alignment.)
    See, I don't think policy yeets punish your alignment. I think policy yeets increase town's winrate, actually, and that people who engage in extreme AtE are in fact a horrific liability regardless of their alignment.

    I have also seen it expressed in the thread that it sucks to have to tell someone who is expressing strong emotion that they are actually faking it. Why? If someone puts something in the game thread they must expect to ne evaluated based on it. Don't feel bad about calling out emotion as fake and telling someone they are making it up, no matter how extreme the emotion is. They chose to put it in the game thread; ergo, tbey consented to having it scrutinized.
    I agree with this post. I've never have a problem calling AtE fake if i feel it is fake, they bringing it into the game therefore it is part of the game then.

    Also people AtEing me does not help their cause, it actually gets me deeper into my tunnel on them, the more extreme a player gets with their emotion, the faster i want to see them gone and i will not stop until they are, whether they are a villager or a wolf.

  50. ISO #50
    Wants It More Guillotina's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alison (#46)
    Quote Originally Posted by bearsquared (#44)
    Extreme emotional displays — real, fake, half-real-half-fake, AtE, whatever — are actively unfun for virtually everyone involved. We, as a community, should probably build a culture where we use avoid using strategies that are unfun even if occasionally give up equity for our win con to do so.
    I largely agree with this but with a slight caveat. Normally when someone else engages in unethical behavior in a game you aren't supposed to follow suit. If someone flops in football you don't flop yourself, you tell the referee what they're doing and let the ref sort it out. If a townie posts their role PM and gets cleared for it that doesn't mean you're allowed to post your own fake role PM as a wolf, you contact the host and ask for a modkill or other compensation. But for AtE specifically I think if town all do it, wolves should be permitted to engage in it as well. It's not like you can contact the host and ask for a modkill if the designated misexe cried their way out of the guillotine.
    Not that a player is ever permitted to request for a modkill here but yah.

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