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Thread: proposed champs setup (i finished)

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    mindmelding with an image of a brick Twice Shrunk's Avatar
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    proposed champs setup

    ...I suppose I’ll have my go at it.

    I think designing a setup worth running in Champs would benefit from a look into what Champs is supposed to do and how to achieve this - if y’all think I missed something anywhere do tell me.

    You can call Champs a social event - but I don’t think that really does justice to it. Mafia itself is a social game, so it really only follows that Champs is a social event. The only difference between Champs and other, normal games is the tournament aspect, as far as I can see. And, yes, it does bring players to MU from different sites, and that 100% is a difference, and 100% makes it worthy of the distinction “social event” - but if we’re talking about the gameplay alone, nothing has really changed besides there being new faces.

    Like, I think in terms of gameplay, the Hydra event is more “social” - the gameplay is 100% impacted by the unique feature of the event while in Champs, this isn’t really as much the case. I suppose what I’m really saying here is that I don’t think the social aspect of Champs should really be considered much when designing a setup for it - besides the caveat of the setup being accommodating to players from as many communities as possible - which... is honestly quite easy with lower power games (I’d think that adapting to low power is easy enough and not some ginormous obstacle to overcome).

    And, I’m not saying anything new and mind-blowing here, I’m sure all of us know this, but again, setup designing really does benefit when you figure out your purposes and goals - setups designed without purpose frankly aren’t going to be great (unless you get lucky and they are).

    Anyways, getting to the meat of it. When considering this from a game design perspective, I think Champs is first and foremost a competitive event where we want people to be able to let their skills shine, and secondly, a social event with players from all over the mafia universe (I tried to find a word other than universe, but it’s totally fitting and I just could not). Additionally, from a game design perspective, Champs-worthy setups are much more restricted by the competitive aspect, as mentioned, the main goal here is to let people display their best mafia skills, and that really does limit what we can do as opposed to the social aspect, which, as far as I can tell, really only has that one restriction I’ve already mentioned (accomodating people from all communities).

    Ok, enough crap, let’s start compiling restrictions. (again, please do tell if you disagree with any of these, and/or think I missed something.

    No Mechanically Confirmed Alignments

    Arete made a good post on this somewhere sometime, but if i were to summarize why this shouldn’t be in Champs, then, well - Champs is meant to let players flex their mafia skills, and a big part of townplay is reading people. It’s pretty much essential to good townplay, if you can’t read people well, you’re absolutely screwed, and I think peeks take away from letting players flex their reading abilities. It lowers the bar for townplay, but Champs is a competitive event and we want the highest quality play, peeks of any sort feel like they take away from that.

    I think that to a lesser extent, this applies to other investigative PRs as well. I really don’t think they should simply not be put in Champs setups, because as opposed to cop, these are more skilled to use, and also offer mafia some sort of not-completely-mech-based counterplay - so if employed properly, they can enhance the play. And... there’s the flip side, where it ends up resembling peeks too much and while this is actually kind of hard to do with most other investigatives, it’s still possible and it’s important to be aware of such.

    No N1 “Kills”

    This... simply should not happen. We want players to be able to shine, this 100% takes away from that. It doesn’t matter that we’re not voting for MVP, the cold and hard fact is that the N1 is almost never in contention because they have not gotten ample time to shine. And, ok, the D1 hang doesn’t really get to do this either - though completely honest, that’s somehow partially on them for not being towny enough or something. And, yeah, there are a ton of cases where this doesn’t feel like a fair assessment, and it’s totally true, but I feel like it’s still somewhat fair-ish - their hang was not inevitable. And, sure, the same thing is true for the N1 kill, but the difference here is that to avoid being the N1 kill for sure, you’re going to end up sacrificing your townplay, which goes against the spirit of Champs. That doesn’t even mention how bad it makes the N1s feel, like, I remember Wisdom said they cried after they got N1ed in Champs Finale and yeah, that absolutely 100% has to be a terrible feeling and not something that anyone should feel just because they played well enough to be N1ed by scum in some of the highest skill games in mafia history (which, like, is a very impressive feat).

    I really can only think of 3 solutions to this (granted, I’ve been up for 18 hours whenever I’m typing this). Poisons and treestumps and arson. I personally am a very big fan of 1 cycle treestumps. I think this is simply the best way to make sure everyone has a chance to shine, and that includes the D1 hang. Poison also works, yeah, but I like treestumps slightly better because the D1 hang gets some extra time too, and the kills are immediate - which... I’m quite sure how it matters, but I like it better anyways. It’s also worth noting that treestumps are inherently townsided because it doesn’t immediately silence people and will have to be accounted for when balancing. And arson, well, is the opposite of immediate kills and is just annoying to balance and annoying for scum to play in and no.

    No Bucket

    Obviously, when I say “bucket”, I don’t mean “bucket”. I’m talking about claiming strats in general. It was a problem last season, it really should never ever happen again. And, as for why it shouldn’t happen? Well, the problems with this are quite similar to the problems with there being peeks. It simply shouldn’t happen.

    Now, there’s the question of PR claiming in general. Like, in the end, PR claims can function as making people inno childs and we’ve already highlighted that there’s a problem with that. The only solution I can think of right now is having a semi-open, but I’d honestly rather not, designing one isn’t nearly as much fun as a good old open. IMO, there should be some sort of anti-claim mechanics, so that if town doesn’t get away with getting an inno child scotch free. And - I’m not talking special mechanics, just make the roles themselves different or something. Like, lovers (though, this isn’t the greatest idea because it kinda slightly goes against “give every player a chance to shine). Not quite sure on this, will think about it.

    No Mountainous

    Now, mountainous does seem like it suits Champs really well. No PRs = the only way to win is to actually play well. And, yeah, this is true, mountainous is the best showcase of pure skill.

    Almost. When we think of "skill", we don't really think about mechanical skill, and it's important to note that mountainous simply lacks the ability to showcase mechanical skill - this kinda plays into PRs. Now, is this a problem? Not really; like I said, people don't really think of mechanics when you talk about skill - and so there's not really that much of a problem with mountainous even when you consider this, but it's just something I think should be acknowledged.

    As for why I don't like mountainous for Champs. I've mentioned Champs is a competitive event, it's a social event, and yeah, those are true. But ultimately, we're here to have fun, and sure, you can claim mountainous is "fun" - but it gets old quick. I think that's a problem with a multi-stage competition as this one - if your approach to every game is virtually the same, it can get boring, it can start to lose its fun, and this ultimately affects the play quality of the game. Games with some sort of PR have a spice that mountainous doesn't, and for such a high stakes event? Well, I think players deserve something spicier than mountainous.

    That being said, mountainous is *fine* because yeah, it can be fun, it can be nice to not deal with PRs, people do enjoy playing mountainous - but if a setup worthy of Champs that's not mountainous can be achieved - I think the players would prefer it.



    I'll edit in the setup as I think about it.

    v1
    Town
    10 VTs
    1 Town Non-Consecutive 2-Shot Jailkeeper
    1 Town Vengeful

    Mafia
    1 Mafia Compulsive Role Oracle
    1 Mafia Cycle 3 Vigilante
    1 Mafia Goon

    N1 factional is a poison.

    v2
    Town
    9 VTs
    1 Town Non-Consecutive Doctor (Cycles 1, 2)
    1 Town Inventor {RB x1, JK x2, Doctor x1}
    1 Town Cycle 5+ Vigilante
    1 Town Universal Backup

    Mafia
    2 Mafia Compulsive Role Oracles
    1 Mafia Even-Night Multitasking JOAT {RB x [infinity], Poison x3}
    1 Mafia Goon

    Factional is unassigned.

    N1 Factional is a poison.
    Last edited by Twice Shrunk; August 2nd, 2022 at 08:47 PM.

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    mindmelding with an image of a brick Twice Shrunk's Avatar
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    Am starting off with this: {Mafia Role Oracle, Mafia Goon, Mafia [PR]}.

    Did want to make this mechanically nuanced and wasn't exactly sure where to start, and well, Mafia Role Oracle just popped in my head, and I think it's inherently a very nuanced role and would definitely make Champs more skillful from a mechanical perspective (and the next part is important) while tying in said mechanical nuance with the gamestate - so it's not as if you're playing (in a way) 2 different games, the mechanical and actual thread-play aspects of the game are much more closely intertwined than you might in most automated games.

    On why I think it's as nuanced as I claim.

    Mafia control the information.

    Said information is not inherently pro-town nor is it pro-mafia, it really depends on how the game has and will play out. I think this specifically makes the role all the better mechanically, as there's no obvious choice(s) for whom the oracle should target - which frankly, almost always adds nuance while still being simple mechanically.

    And, like, a simple cop would fit this criteria, but this is arguably much more nuanced just because of what needs to be considered.

    - What information will town get out of it?
    - What information could town get out of it in the future?
    - What information do we get out of it?
    - What information do we get out of it in the future?
    - How could this cause town to play?
    - How could this force us to play?

    And - due to the fact wolves don't have all the information - they're dealing with guesses, and they need to

    a. Be able to make reasonable, accurate predictions on gamestate.
    b. Be able to play around things if $%#! doesn't go as per said predictions.

    Also do want to mention that there will be at least 2 town PRs, just having one town PR doesn't feel like it works as well with Mafia Role Oracle as 2-3. And, same thing with wolves, I feel like one wolf vanilla really enhances the nuance of the Mafia Role Oracle.

    And, I know that I'm against peeks in Champs, and this design does allow for peeks, however, I'm actually pretty fine with this because

    a. It's limited to one peek.
    b. Mafia control the possible peek.
    c. Mafia can play against there being an alignment peek (say, they peek someone vanilla and the goon is dead, so the person is essentially peeked town) in the first place.
    d. Said peek might be pro-mafia if they get a PR or something.
    Last edited by Twice Shrunk; March 17th, 2022 at 09:24 AM.

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    mindmelding with an image of a brick Twice Shrunk's Avatar
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    I've been thinking about what other PRs to add, and I've reached the conclusion that there's no roles that I'm aware of that really work well with the Mafia Role Oracle - in the sense, there are no specific PRs that complement it, although they could work with it.

    The presence (not abilities) of PRs is really the important bit here, and while certain PRs work better than others in this situation - I think the main thing to focus on now is balance, that's probably the only thing to be achieved while fulfilling the conditions I've restricted myself to, if balance is achieved, I can add quite a few different combinations of PRs, none of which are really better than other combinations.

    One thought is to just put PRs close to named townies, but that honestly completely feels like a cop-out, I'd rather give town some actual power and give wolves enough to balance that out.
    Last edited by Twice Shrunk; March 18th, 2022 at 08:36 AM.

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    mindmelding with an image of a brick Twice Shrunk's Avatar
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    Have been definitely leaning a lot more towards low power for the remaining 3 PRs while still being decently impactful on the game.

    Mafia Cycle 3 Vigilante
    Town 2-Shot Jailkeeper
    Town Vengeful

    I think this works nicely, how do y'all feel about balance and the setup overall?

    Have updated OP to reflect this.

    fwiw, I've been balancing this around the assumption 12-3 mountainous is balanced.

    I definitely think that giving mafia a vig is justified here given that everyone is treestumped, plus, its timing is very restricted anyways to prevent wolves from getting too much utility out of it (it inherently already is strong for wolves because it guaranteed hits a townie).
    Last edited by Twice Shrunk; March 18th, 2022 at 08:41 AM.

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    mindmelding with an image of a brick Twice Shrunk's Avatar
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    Does no one actually have thoughts?

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    mindmelding with an image of a brick Twice Shrunk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Twice Shrunk (#5)
    Does no one actually have thoughts?
    Ok lol, does anyone think it’s fine?
    Last edited by Twice Shrunk; March 20th, 2022 at 06:38 PM.

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    Season 8 Champze katze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Twice Shrunk (#5)
    Does no one actually have thoughts?
    tbh i didnt realize the setup was finally done until just now and kinda didnt feel like replying while you were theorycrafting

    making everyone a 1 cycle stump is interesting in theory but i don't think it'd work in champs




    i wrote the above a few days ago and i guess closed the tab without completing my thoughts

    not much feedback ik but i do think it's something you're kinda balancing around so /shrug

    Quote Originally Posted by Arapocalypse (#2181)
    ...meow?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lissa (#10803)
    REVEAL (PART SEVEN)

    In first place and winning the Mafia Championship with 99 points is...







    @katze (Throne of Lies)!
    Quote Originally Posted by Marshal (#174)
    tl;dr: kat called my $%#! small, I townread it
    Quote Originally Posted by katze (#8516)
    Quote Originally Posted by Justplayingitcool (#8515)
    The reality is that when you've soft defended half the wolf team, and tried to kill who I perceive as villagers, it's impossible for me to ever take that slot out of the PoE, or even trust them. I feel like they tried to open the PoE by bringing C4 back into the spotlight.
    hey put respect on my name

    i also hard defended the other half of the wolfteam
    Quote Originally Posted by Hally (#39)
    what if kat is vt

    would she throw like this
    Quote Originally Posted by neopest (#1)
    Today we celebrate the life, career, piety, and knowledge of Katze. The one who exposed the world to this truth and gave meaning to life.

    Quote Originally Posted by Transcend (#217)
    Quote Originally Posted by Transcend (#160)
    Quote Originally Posted by katze (#42)
    ##Vote Sleep

    im tired and feel like staying in bed

    also we don’t have enough info to execute someone d1 or something
    This immediately pings me a bit. Partially because i know it's not smart but also seems like he doesn't wanna step on toes so early.
    Yo katze

    I feel like this might have been a joke post

    But also i feel like there's some truth behind every joke and I just got pinged by this

    So can you tell me the rationale behind this post?
    Quote Originally Posted by Marluxion (#738)
    Quote Originally Posted by Wiml (#736)
    How confident are you feeling on your kat SR? I'm still only seeing it.
    Like 100% she's either wolf or pr
    Quote Originally Posted by Marluxion (#587)
    Quote Originally Posted by katze (#586)
    Quote Originally Posted by Marluxion (#584)
    katze is trying to discredit me without even asking why i think she's wolfy LMAO
    im discrediting you because i near-constantly watch you tunnel villagers every game you play

    i don't really care why you wolfread me
    I think my ratio of being right to wrong is actually close to as good as yours, it's just when i'm wrong i'm a lot louder about it

    also you are either a wolf or a PR, nowhere in between
    There's no inquisitiveness in your posts at all
    you are posting to placate rather than to hunt
    Quote Originally Posted by Mafia Host (#762)
    Champs Practice Game 2: (Not So) Classic Movies Night 1 Results

    Marluxion has died. They were: Town.

    Night 1 has ended.

    Night 1 ended at 5:00 PM EDT on Sunday, May 2nd, 2021.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mafia Host (#2141)
    katze (Vanilla Town)
    Quote Originally Posted by Wiml (#2143)
    Wait kat was VT? Lol.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marluxion (#714)
    Katze is uwu
    Quote Originally Posted by illario (#2944)
    Pretty sure Katze is just an innocent memer gamer girl who likes to joke around and play seriously as well and genuinely gets upset when her jokes are taken seriously and her seriousness is taken as jokes

    And if she’s maf then she’s just a borderline sociopath memer girl whose jokes are just lies and her seriousness are just lies and everything about her is a lie and if she flips maf this game and I see her say anything remotely scummy in a future game I’m just gonna death tunnel her to the ends of the earth regardless of how genuine her posts may feel
    Quote Originally Posted by AYAYA (#6543)
    signing my posts makes me feel subhuman

    - chloe
    Quote Originally Posted by Thunal33 (#238)
    you're not a reliable source of redcheck yet
    Quote Originally Posted by nutella
    i looked away for five minutes and katze faked a red?
    Quote Originally Posted by Makaze (#5)
    Why are you doing this?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ampharos (#11644)
    katze how the hell do you have 225 posts in a dead end phase
    Quote Originally Posted by vanity. (#8832)
    ok katze is trolling me lmao

    i feel your pain chloe.

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    mindmelding with an image of a brick Twice Shrunk's Avatar
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    Why?

    Edit: @katze
    Last edited by Twice Shrunk; March 23rd, 2022 at 07:17 AM.

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    Season 8 Champze katze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Twice Shrunk (#8)
    Why?

    Edit: @katze
    Oops forgot to reply ty for ping

    It’s just — mafia treestumps are disruptive to games at best and every villager being a stump means that you effectively neuter all kills designed to silence a player

    In quals id expect most stumps to do nothing and in semis onwards I’d expect it to be a common complaint amongst wolves that they’re doing too much

    Quote Originally Posted by Arapocalypse (#2181)
    ...meow?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lissa (#10803)
    REVEAL (PART SEVEN)

    In first place and winning the Mafia Championship with 99 points is...







    @katze (Throne of Lies)!
    Quote Originally Posted by Marshal (#174)
    tl;dr: kat called my $%#! small, I townread it
    Quote Originally Posted by katze (#8516)
    Quote Originally Posted by Justplayingitcool (#8515)
    The reality is that when you've soft defended half the wolf team, and tried to kill who I perceive as villagers, it's impossible for me to ever take that slot out of the PoE, or even trust them. I feel like they tried to open the PoE by bringing C4 back into the spotlight.
    hey put respect on my name

    i also hard defended the other half of the wolfteam
    Quote Originally Posted by Hally (#39)
    what if kat is vt

    would she throw like this
    Quote Originally Posted by neopest (#1)
    Today we celebrate the life, career, piety, and knowledge of Katze. The one who exposed the world to this truth and gave meaning to life.

    Quote Originally Posted by Transcend (#217)
    Quote Originally Posted by Transcend (#160)
    Quote Originally Posted by katze (#42)
    ##Vote Sleep

    im tired and feel like staying in bed

    also we don’t have enough info to execute someone d1 or something
    This immediately pings me a bit. Partially because i know it's not smart but also seems like he doesn't wanna step on toes so early.
    Yo katze

    I feel like this might have been a joke post

    But also i feel like there's some truth behind every joke and I just got pinged by this

    So can you tell me the rationale behind this post?
    Quote Originally Posted by Marluxion (#738)
    Quote Originally Posted by Wiml (#736)
    How confident are you feeling on your kat SR? I'm still only seeing it.
    Like 100% she's either wolf or pr
    Quote Originally Posted by Marluxion (#587)
    Quote Originally Posted by katze (#586)
    Quote Originally Posted by Marluxion (#584)
    katze is trying to discredit me without even asking why i think she's wolfy LMAO
    im discrediting you because i near-constantly watch you tunnel villagers every game you play

    i don't really care why you wolfread me
    I think my ratio of being right to wrong is actually close to as good as yours, it's just when i'm wrong i'm a lot louder about it

    also you are either a wolf or a PR, nowhere in between
    There's no inquisitiveness in your posts at all
    you are posting to placate rather than to hunt
    Quote Originally Posted by Mafia Host (#762)
    Champs Practice Game 2: (Not So) Classic Movies Night 1 Results

    Marluxion has died. They were: Town.

    Night 1 has ended.

    Night 1 ended at 5:00 PM EDT on Sunday, May 2nd, 2021.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mafia Host (#2141)
    katze (Vanilla Town)
    Quote Originally Posted by Wiml (#2143)
    Wait kat was VT? Lol.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marluxion (#714)
    Katze is uwu
    Quote Originally Posted by illario (#2944)
    Pretty sure Katze is just an innocent memer gamer girl who likes to joke around and play seriously as well and genuinely gets upset when her jokes are taken seriously and her seriousness is taken as jokes

    And if she’s maf then she’s just a borderline sociopath memer girl whose jokes are just lies and her seriousness are just lies and everything about her is a lie and if she flips maf this game and I see her say anything remotely scummy in a future game I’m just gonna death tunnel her to the ends of the earth regardless of how genuine her posts may feel
    Quote Originally Posted by AYAYA (#6543)
    signing my posts makes me feel subhuman

    - chloe
    Quote Originally Posted by Thunal33 (#238)
    you're not a reliable source of redcheck yet
    Quote Originally Posted by nutella
    i looked away for five minutes and katze faked a red?
    Quote Originally Posted by Makaze (#5)
    Why are you doing this?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ampharos (#11644)
    katze how the hell do you have 225 posts in a dead end phase
    Quote Originally Posted by vanity. (#8832)
    ok katze is trolling me lmao

    i feel your pain chloe.

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    mindmelding with an image of a brick Twice Shrunk's Avatar
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    Mafia Treestump was really just to make it work in modbot - yeah, wouldn't really put that anyways if not for that.

    Every villager being a stump, yeah, works against part of the point of nks meant to be able to silence a player.

    I think that stumps should still exist to allow players to play their best, but perhaps only for the townies who die in the first cycle, after that players have had 2 cycles to play well which I feel like definitely is a lot closer to sufficient. Any more than that, and yeah, the lack of silencing really starts to hurt wolves. I prolly did underestimate how townsided stumps are when everyone has them.

    Not sure how this would work in modbot tbh, but :shrug:.

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    mindmelding with an image of a brick Twice Shrunk's Avatar
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    Hmm, would anyone be interested if I ran this without treestump $%#!?

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    Hype! Arapocalypse's Avatar Discord Moderator
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    My initial thoughts are that if you made it a night 1 poison instead of a treestump, that would probably be much easier to automate!!

    Might have actual setup thoughts at some point* later!!!

    *May be several months from now!!
    Message a ghost at Arapocalypse#0834!

    [9:07 AM] boq, bbt's boss: Be Boq
    [9:07 AM] boq, bbt's boss: Wait for the principal in the cafeteria
    [9:07 AM] boq, bbt's boss: Be offered coffee by the peeps there
    [9:08 AM] boq, bbt's boss: "Nice"
    [9:08 AM] boq, bbt's boss: Grab a random mug. Enjoy your coffee. Notice that it says "principal's mug" on it

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    mindmelding with an image of a brick Twice Shrunk's Avatar
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    Oh, wait.

    lolme.

    Don’t think there currently any automated option for turning off factional kills for one night, as in, you can’t do so at rand, it’ll have to be manually done during N1.

    Might be cool to have different options for factional kill type.
    Last edited by Twice Shrunk; March 26th, 2022 at 12:28 PM.

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    Wants It More Vulgard's Avatar
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    I think the setup is cool, I'd play it if you ran it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ranmilia (#192)
    Mafia is a game about losing

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    mindmelding with an image of a brick Twice Shrunk's Avatar
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    running this!

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    mindmelding with an image of a brick Twice Shrunk's Avatar
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    test 1 complete

    power roles died early and the setup played out pretty close to mountainous but thoughts still exist

    obvious ones are

    make jk non consecutive and role oracle compulsive

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    mindmelding with an image of a brick Twice Shrunk's Avatar
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    Despite the fact the setup never truly got tested, I’m pretty sure it doesn’t exactly match my vision of what the setup was supposed to be.

    This feels like mountainous with a bit of extra spice, which is fine, and I think this setup is good for Champs.

    But, I definitely wanted Role Oracle to have more of a presence and have the setup be more mechanically nuanced than it is rn, instead of yeah, being like mountainous with some spice.

    I’ll probably keep this as something that works, but see if I can create something I like better.
    Last edited by Twice Shrunk; June 11th, 2022 at 02:33 PM.

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    mindmelding with an image of a brick Twice Shrunk's Avatar
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    Don’t think a 3 person wolfteam really has enough room for what I’m looking for.

    I want Role Oracle to be a much bigger part of the setup, and besides making the setup role madness, the only solution I can think of is to add more.

    2 oracles plus a goon doesn’t really work either for balance reasons, and I’m pretty sure I’ll end up having the wolf team look like {Role Oracle, Role Oracle, PR, Goon}, which means the setup is gonna be 17p, which… has happened once? in Champs.

    Should still work.

  19. ISO #19
    Soul Reader anne.'s Avatar
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    What's stopping a compulsive oracle from just putting themselves on the NK each night?

  20. ISO #20
    Soul Reader Vorros's Avatar
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    I think that is one of the points of the setup.

    Because the PR's died so early in the test game, the Role Oracle didn't really have a point. Even if they were alive, I feel like the Role Oracle was more negative utility to the wolves. i think it makes more sense to add a town KP so that the Role Oracle has more opportunities to die and reveal something. I think if you add a another Role Oracle and Mafia PR, then adding a town investigative works as well. The 2-1 ratio for Role Oracle to Town PR seems a bit small, but the problem with increasing it would be making it too townsided.

    Some otherwise pointless ponderings on improving the setup.
    lmao
    Quote Originally Posted by iaafr (#579)
    town but hesitant because I've seen him with good tone and perspective as scum (some light game idr)
    Quote Originally Posted by Master Radishes (#1170)
    I refuse to read Vorros. I played two games with him, both times easily cleared him town, both times he was wolf and won. Not through, like, powerwolfing, just through good tone and consistency and 'things a wolf likely wouldn't say' stuff.
    Quote Originally Posted by moth (#2248)
    vorros is the type of town player who is so nonchalant that he feels like an obvious person to push because he doesnt show many signs of paranoia.
    that playstyle is particularly dangerous if in the hands of mafia because scum nonchalance is idyllic scenery.
    I am told vorros is elite level wolf and can be highly nasty to get rid of.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mafia Host (#1483)
    Dessert Mafia Day 1 Votecount

    Votes Target Voters (Posts in Phase)
    8 Vorros perna_condita (119), Vulgard (156), YOLOSWAG (56), Pan (140), Accelerator (96), Mischief (63), Squirtle Squad (67), Ana (35)
    5 Experience Amrock (160), Limestone (126), Vorros (91), Sett (34), Vandyfan402 (94)
    1 perna_condita Guillotina (200)
    3 Not voting xXxSRfanboy1999xXx (0), Pony (0), Experience (8)


    View Vote History

    Vorros was eliminated. They were: Mafia Jack of All Trades (x3 Jailkeeper, x1 Poisoner) | Odd Cycle.
    Role PM for Dessert Mafia

    You are Mafia Jack of All Trades (x3 Jailkeeper, x1 Poisoner) | Odd Cycle. You win when you overpower the Town and are the only evil faction remaining.

    As Mafia, you have access to the Factional Night Kill Night Action. Players targeted with this action will die at the end of the Night unless protected. Submit your Night Action each night using the form below the game thread. You may change your target as many times as you want. The last action submitted will be used.

    If no Mafia submit an action, a player will be picked at random from the living non-Mafia players.



    Mafia Jack Of All Trades

    As Mafia Jack Of All Trades, you have access to one or more night actions.

    x3 Jailkeeper

    You have access to the Jailkeeping Night Action. Jailkeeping another player will both protect that player from being killed as well as prevent that player from being able to successfully use their Night Action that night. You will not learn whether your target was successfully protected from any kills, nor will you learn whether your target had a Night Action. Submit your Night Action each night using the form below the game thread. You may change your target as many times as you want. The last action submitted will be used. You cannot target the same player on consecutive nights.

    x1 Poisoner

    You have access to the Poison Night Action. Players you target with this action will have their poisoned status announced at the beginning of the following Day. Poisoned players will die if they are not healed by the end of the Day. Submit your Night Action each night using the form below the game thread. You may change your target as many times as you want. The last action submitted will be used.

    Submit your Night Action each night using the form below the game thread. You may change your target as many times as you want. The last action submitted will be used.

    If you do not submit an action, you will forego your action on that day. Keep in mind that if you have multiple uses of your abilities, you must cycle through all of them before being allowed to reuse any of them.

    Odd Cycle

    The Odd Cycle modifier limits you to only submit Night actions on Odd numbered Nights.


    Day 1 has ended.

    Day 1 ended at 7:00 PM EDT on Wednesday, April 13th, 2022.

  21. ISO #21
    mindmelding with an image of a brick Twice Shrunk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by anne. (#19)
    What's stopping a compulsive oracle from just putting themselves on the NK each night?
    :shrug:

    I’ll figure it out.

  22. ISO #22
    mindmelding with an image of a brick Twice Shrunk's Avatar
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    At the last wolf PR being a 2-Shot Even-Night Poisoner.

    Any wolf dying is more punishing than in a normal setup and overall the Role Oracles are more likely to be townsided, if targets are chosen at random (besides the obvious no goes), and there’s not really any way to compensate without giving wolves kp.

    I like this because first, it’s poison, which inherently makes it a bit weaker, and second, because it’s spread out so that the last use goes into late midgame/early lategame - which means getting full utility out of it requires good play and $%#!. 2 shots are probably justified, considering it means I can compensate town with better PRs which makes Oracles a bit more wolfsided, and also just because 1 extra kill doesn’t really feel like that much in a 17p game.

  23. ISO #23
    mindmelding with an image of a brick Twice Shrunk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Twice Shrunk (#21)
    Quote Originally Posted by anne. (#19)
    What's stopping a compulsive oracle from just putting themselves on the NK each night?
    :shrug:

    I’ll figure it out.
    Factional is unassigned.

  24. ISO #24
    mindmelding with an image of a brick Twice Shrunk's Avatar
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    Again, have arrived at the conclusion the same conclusion as with the other setup - the only thing that matters about the PRs is their power, for balance reasons.

    P#3 says it better.

    On the power itself, I’d really like to avoid PRs that give the illusion of power but are pretty much useless here, besides that… :shrug:.

  25. ISO #25
    GOAT Tier DoctorZeus's Avatar
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    are you looking for another test?

    id be in

  26. ISO #26
    mindmelding with an image of a brick Twice Shrunk's Avatar
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    Sometime soon.

  27. ISO #27
    mindmelding with an image of a brick Twice Shrunk's Avatar
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    Ok, here's what I've come up with.

    Town Non-Consecutive Doctor (Cycles 1, 2)
    Town Inventor {RB x1, JK x1, Doctor x1}
    Town Empowerer
    Town Universal Backup

    I've also edited the poisoner a bit to

    Mafia Even-Night Roleblocker + JOAT {Poisoner x2}

    for balance stuff and also to make the empowerer actually useful.

    It's essentially a Even-Night Multitasking JOAT with unlimited rbs and 2 poisons.

    There was a bit of thought behind the PRs, but, uh, I don't really think it's anything to talk about.
    Last edited by Twice Shrunk; July 24th, 2022 at 03:28 PM.

  28. ISO #28
    mindmelding with an image of a brick Twice Shrunk's Avatar
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    Ok, setup complete.
    ---
    Town
    9 VTs
    1 Town Non-Consecutive Doctor (Cycles 1, 2)
    1 Town Inventor {RB x1, JK x1, Doctor x1}
    1 Town Empowerer
    1 Town Universal Backup

    Mafia
    2 Mafia Compulsive Role Oracles
    1 Mafia Even-Night Multitasking JOAT {RB x [infinity], Poison x2}
    1 Mafia Goon

    Factional is unassigned.
    ---
    Thoughts?
    Last edited by Twice Shrunk; July 24th, 2022 at 03:29 PM.

  29. ISO #29
    mindmelding with an image of a brick Twice Shrunk's Avatar
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    Haven’t been satisfied with the Empowerer - it felt a bit like a cop out in terms of power. But, I couldn’t really justify giving town more actually useful power without giving wolves some more as well.

    So, I gave the wolf poisoner an extra shot, allowing them to get of another poison if they survive till N6.

    Compensated town by giving inventor an extra jk shot and replacing empowerer with a cycle 5+ vigilante.

    I’m not sure how smart of an idea it was giving both factions extra kp that would require them to outsurvive over half the game - probably makes things swingier - but I’m liking the look of this a lot better.

    Edited setup is in the OP.

    Again, thoughts?
    Last edited by Twice Shrunk; August 2nd, 2022 at 09:43 PM.

  30. ISO #30
    mindmelding with an image of a brick Twice Shrunk's Avatar
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    A problem with the setup is how is encourages wolves to play - bussing in this setup punishes wolves more than it would in mountainous, and imo setups in Champs shouldn’t really force people to play in ways they might not like.

    I’m probably overestimating just how punishing a role oracle dying is, but I’d like to test it to get a better idea of if I should edit it, and if so, how.

    If the setup ends up only slightly discouraging bussing, then it’s fine, but if it’s seriously impacting the way they play, then my vision for the setup probably can’t coexist with Champs unless I expand the wolfteam, which… wouldn’t work logistically for Champs.
    Last edited by Twice Shrunk; August 2nd, 2022 at 09:42 PM.

  31. ISO #31
    GOAT Tier neopest's Avatar
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    mafia role oracles will just put their actions onto whoever theyre killing at night so it doesnt reveal anything ever

  32. ISO #32
    mindmelding with an image of a brick Twice Shrunk's Avatar
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    Dammit?

    Will test.

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The Bounty Hunter is an independently aligned role that starts the game with an assassination target. The Bounty Hunter may kill another player every night. If they kill their target, they will win the game.