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Thread: Redirector Role Policies: Discussion Wanted

  1. ISO #1
    τη καλλίστη Makaze's Avatar Administrator
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    Redirector Role Policies: Discussion Wanted

    I asked the following question in Discord, and the results were about even. I'm taking the advice to post a feedback thread instead.

    Redirector: A redirects B to C. B targeted C last night, and has a non-consecutive restriction. What should happen to B's action?

    1. The action succeeds (restriction only applies to what was submitted, not what processes)
    2. The action fails (redirect converts to Roleblock)
    3. The Redirect fails (original submission is processed as normal)


    I'd like to hear any arguments people have for either side, and see some reasons why the other side is wrong, if you think they are. How strongly do you feel about it, and why?

    The best arguments will decide how Modbot should handle it.
    I hold you in the highest regard, my friends.


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    i'm about to make makaze's pronouns was/were

  2. ISO #2
    Wants It More DkKoba's Avatar
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    1.
    Too lazy to retype reasoning from discord. Also thats already fairly standard resolution.
    "1 thing I will give you Dk, I think you are very good at manipulating.
    I don't mean that in a bad way, I just think you has this way with yourself.
    You know what to say and when to say [it]." ~VFP

  3. ISO #3
    Too long and too gay lute's Avatar
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    Option 1 because it's non-consecutive targeting. You're not doing the targeting, so no restriction. Some other bloke took your legal target and changed course. If you're not allowed to shoot JFK consecutively, so you aim at someone else and fire, but Magneto redirects the bullet into JFK, you followed your set of rules. This logic applies to both 2 and 3. Initial targeter is clear because they didn't shoot the same target consecutively and Magneto is clear because he had no restriction.

    It's also just more fun to allow abilities through whenever possible. Not to mention Option 2 is unintuitive in the sense that anyone who is not already aware of this specific Modbot interaction will be confused about the sudden appearance of a Roleblocker. In closed setups this would lead to role speculations based on faulty evidence provided by the software, and that should be near the tippy-top of things to avoid. Option 1 is the cleanest.
    [4:44 AM] FTF, Burnt Crust: Lute that just sounds like a squid with extra steps
    Little Princess, Little Princess, precious Little Princess.
    The little girl was as beautiful as a princess, but she was always all alone.
    The girl fround her grave. Today is the day of her funeral.
    And everyone lived happily ever after.

  4. ISO #4
    Wants It More DkKoba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DkKoba (#2)
    1.
    Too lazy to retype reasoning from discord. Also thats already fairly standard resolution.
    To follow up the illegal target for next night remains whoever B initially targeted, and NOT C..
    "1 thing I will give you Dk, I think you are very good at manipulating.
    I don't mean that in a bad way, I just think you has this way with yourself.
    You know what to say and when to say [it]." ~VFP

  5. ISO #5
    mindmelding with an image of a brick Twice Shrunk's Avatar
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    Am inclined towards #2 - but it probably depends on interpretation of what "non-consecutive" encompasses.

    If non-consecutive means "you cannot submit your action on the same player twice in a row" then #1 makes the most sense.

    If non-consecutive means "you cannot visit the same player twice in a row" then #2 makes the most sense.

    I personally do interpret it as the latter - hence why I think #2 makes more sense.

    How is non-consecutive currently programmed into Modbot?

    Edit: Took out "target" from 3rd line, meant it in another sense.
    Last edited by Twice Shrunk; May 13th, 2022 at 12:56 PM.
    whoops?

  6. ISO #6
    Wants It More DkKoba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Twice Shrunk (#5)
    Am inclined towards #2 - but it probably depends on interpretation of what "non-consecutive" encompasses.

    If non-consecutive means "you cannot submit your action on the same player twice in a row" then #1 makes the most sense.

    If non-consecutive means "you cannot target/visit the same player twice in a row" then #2 makes the most sense.

    I personally do interpret it as the latter - hence why I think #2 makes more sense.

    How is non-consecutive currently programmed into Modbot?
    it is a *targeting* restriction though. Never has a targeting restriction explicitly said that the action fails on the target only that the target cannot be chosen.
    "1 thing I will give you Dk, I think you are very good at manipulating.
    I don't mean that in a bad way, I just think you has this way with yourself.
    You know what to say and when to say [it]." ~VFP

  7. ISO #7
    mindmelding with an image of a brick Twice Shrunk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DkKoba (#6)
    it is a *targeting* restriction though.
    This is one way to take it - but don't think you really actually have reasons to show that this is exactly and only the case.
    whoops?

  8. ISO #8
    mindmelding with an image of a brick Twice Shrunk's Avatar
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    Ah, it seems Mak's programmed it to be taken as a targeting restriction.

    Yeah, would recommend to follow that through, then, and do #1.
    Last edited by Twice Shrunk; May 13th, 2022 at 12:54 PM.
    whoops?

  9. ISO #9
    Galaxy Brain Jaleb's Avatar
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    Surprised it's not a poll

    I would say 1. I feel like non-consecutive should be a conscious restriction, while redirect would make the action unconscious.

    If there was a restriction saying that target C cannot be protected from kp two nights in a row, then player B's action will fail. This is more referring to a global ruling than player B's role though.
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  10. ISO #10
    Wants It More orangeandblack5's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Twice Shrunk (#5)
    Am inclined towards #2 - but it probably depends on interpretation of what "non-consecutive" encompasses.

    If non-consecutive means "you cannot submit your action on the same player twice in a row" then #1 makes the most sense.

    If non-consecutive means "you cannot visit the same player twice in a row" then #2 makes the most sense.
    This

    But prefer #1 because I read it as a targeting restriction not an action target restriction

    Just make sure to be clear about which of these it really is and we good

  11. ISO #11
    Wants It More Ezradekezra's Avatar
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    I'm going with option 1 as the non-consecutive modifier specifically applies to targeting (or at least it seems to from the wording of the modifier)
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    guys what the $%#!

    45
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    i wonder how much c4/ezra have cost makaze in hosting costs single handedly via this thread

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    whats your opinion on c4/ezras contributions to the no mods thread
    i and the other mods wouldn’t have a job if not for them

    they’re a vital part of MU’s economy
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    Apparently I gotta thank that Abrakadabra person for hosting the game. It says here they did an excellent job with the setup and the discord server chats and finding crack replacement players, or replacement players who were on crack, whichever it may be.
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    nice

    i stole it

    ive been waiting way too long for this

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    IT WAS LITERALLY THE SAME SECOND THIS ISNT FAIR

  12. ISO #12
    alien shapeshifter Hally's Avatar Moderator
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    option 1 feels most intuitive to me
    Quote Originally Posted by litten
    hally you have a Wowee addicfion
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    Name the wowee dog hally
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    hi im hally
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    im a big nerd something something gravity falls
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    tfw i cant mindmeld with hally this game
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    How To Tell If Your Hally Is An Alien Shapeshifter:
    - Apply moderate but steady pressure d1 and observe their reaction.
    - If your Hally is genuine, you will notice a distinct morphing of their facial features into an "anime" or "chibi" style resembling the kaomoji (〃>_<;〃), their arms will turn into fingerless drumsticks and begin rapidly vibrating up and down, and they will emit various phrases such as "no bulli!" and "give me space!" and "but why!"
    - On the other hand, if your Hally remains in a photorealistic human form and responds calmly with phrases like "That's unfortunate, but I hope we can work together!" and changes the subject, you have an alien shapeshifter on your hands and should quickly excuse yourself and break the glass on the nearest eod flamethrower.
    Quote Originally Posted by lute (#50)
    182. Bellossom



    Bellossom, Bubbles, and @Hally. doing a little flower dance. travel agent who doesn't work on commission. knows she's pretty but loves being reminded. tries to maintain a vegetable garden but isn't very good at it.

    A-Tier.
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    Gay=hally
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    dear professor

    i need an extension on this assignment if thats ok thank you so much or i can send you what i have already idk

    kind regards
    hally
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    when i see hally in the playerlist of a non post cap game

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    I'm going to apologize for this one in advance but I hope you'll all humor me for a little while. This is a champs level game after all and I can't help but try and post in a way to properly honor the occasion. Who knows when I'll be back in this situation again.

    I don't think it's a secret for most of you that my track record in reading Hally has been rather … well … awful thus far in our games. I did have one specific game where I recognized Hally was a villager and confidently (and happily!) let the world know. They flipped wolf. After our Syndicate game together and then Anni (both of which saw me find Hally's eod wolfy and press there) I wanted to make a concentrated effort to finally read that slot correctly.

    I spent some time today combing through recent-ish games this year of Hally's. The wolf game on the Org website, the Vig game over on the Syndicate one, and all sorts of mashes/smaller games through MU as well. Rocks fall, Anni, Homestuck, CoV, etc. You get the picture. All in all there were 16 different games I pulled isos from. I then went and ran through the isos extracting all the day one posts from the first half of the day, labeled them as W or V, and ran them through a bit of a homemade database that would do a few different things for me. One of the things was to make a word cloud which would count the number of times each word was used in these isos and make the word larger the more frequently it was used. For example:





    Anyways, I separated the wolf isos from the villa isos and then removed things like articles (a, the, in, an, etc) as well as player names as those aren't really super relevant to our investigation and cross referenced them to see if anything word usage stood out as alignment indicative in the top 10 most common words. While there were small word choices favored it didn't seem super significant. What WAS significant were two other things:

    One: While specific word choices weren't very telling I did notice a definitely trend of elegance in the wolf isos. The words may change but the idea remained the same. In wolf ISOs Hally had a habit of using larger, more elegant words whereas in the villa ISOs Hally just talked more casually. I'll call these Posts Exceedingly Elegant as we continue.

    Two: Villager isos were much more full of observational posts rather than inquisitive ones. The wolf iso was full of open ended questions requesting elaboration. Not just directly to a specific player but also towards the thread at large asking if it saw what Hally was seeing. Meanwhile the villager iso was full of more pointed statement. It was telling the thread what Hally was seeing and making sure everyone understood. The village iso had a higher frequency – by a significant margin – of Posts Of Observation.


    Again, I really want to get this right so I didn't stop there. Science isn't science until you write it down after all. I went ahead and charted the percentage of posts as a villager and as a wolf for both posts containing an elegant word and posts making observations. It's a bit crude but here's the quick jot down I made to visualize it:





    So I wanted to see how this one was shaping up. Remember, these were all taken from the first half of day one isos which we've made it past here. I went ahead and ran through Hally's iso from this game, plotted the elegance and observational percentages on the chart, and ran the following equation to try and determine the exact percentage chance Hally has at being a wolf:

    (Posts Exceedingly Elegant as a wolf)(Posts Exceedingly Elegant here) + (Posts of Observation as a villager)(Posts of Observation here) = the mathematical chance of Hally being a villager here (do 1-this for wolf obv).

    Which looks something like this:


    (Posts Exceedingly Elegant as a wolf)(Posts Exceedingly Elegant here) + (Posts of Observation as a villager)(Posts of Observation here)

    Or written differently

    PEEPEE POOPOO

  13. ISO #13
    I start by asking myself why the non-consecutive modifier exists. It exists because some roles would be overpowered if they can target the same player every night. The most obvious example would be a doctor protecting the same player every night so that they cannot be killed until the doctor is found and killed (or blocked).

    Option 1 would allow circumvention of the non-consecutive modifier to deliberately target the same player every night, but it would not be overpowered. It would require the use of two power roles to accomplish one task, and it would require the redirector to know the identity of the other role and who they are targeting each night. Realistically, this would only be possible with a wolf redirector targeting another wolf, and it would come at the cost of not being able to target a villager that night.

    So it would seem to me that options 2 and 3 are trying to solve a problem which isn't really a problem.

  14. ISO #14
    Calculated. bopolis's Avatar
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    I would do option 2 only so the redirect can't be used to game the non-consecutive component of the action. For example, if wolves had a role that couldn't target the same person consecutively and a redirector, I would not want to allow for wolves to game the non-consecutive drawback with the redirect.
    Cow - Today at 1:02 AM
    This EoD has given me a deep and profound understanding regarding what it might be liking playing with me when i do stupid $%#! as villager.

  15. ISO #15
    Wants It More DkKoba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bopolis (#14)
    I would do option 2 only so the redirect can't be used to game the non-consecutive component of the action. For example, if wolves had a role that couldn't target the same person consecutively and a redirector, I would not want to allow for wolves to game the non-consecutive drawback with the redirect.
    that is an extremely niche example that game hosts can easily bypass with a disloyal modifier
    "1 thing I will give you Dk, I think you are very good at manipulating.
    I don't mean that in a bad way, I just think you has this way with yourself.
    You know what to say and when to say [it]." ~VFP

  16. ISO #16
    Calculated. bopolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DkKoba (#15)
    Quote Originally Posted by bopolis (#14)
    I would do option 2 only so the redirect can't be used to game the non-consecutive component of the action. For example, if wolves had a role that couldn't target the same person consecutively and a redirector, I would not want to allow for wolves to game the non-consecutive drawback with the redirect.
    that is an extremely niche example that game hosts can easily bypass with a disloyal modifier
    i have no idea what that is
    Cow - Today at 1:02 AM
    This EoD has given me a deep and profound understanding regarding what it might be liking playing with me when i do stupid $%#! as villager.

  17. ISO #17
    Calculated. bopolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bopolis (#16)
    Quote Originally Posted by DkKoba (#15)
    Quote Originally Posted by bopolis (#14)
    I would do option 2 only so the redirect can't be used to game the non-consecutive component of the action. For example, if wolves had a role that couldn't target the same person consecutively and a redirector, I would not want to allow for wolves to game the non-consecutive drawback with the redirect.
    that is an extremely niche example that game hosts can easily bypass with a disloyal modifier
    i have no idea what that is
    but assuming it does cover that issue then option 1 works
    Cow - Today at 1:02 AM
    This EoD has given me a deep and profound understanding regarding what it might be liking playing with me when i do stupid $%#! as villager.

  18. ISO #18
    Wants It More DkKoba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bopolis (#17)
    Quote Originally Posted by bopolis (#16)
    Quote Originally Posted by DkKoba (#15)
    Quote Originally Posted by bopolis (#14)
    I would do option 2 only so the redirect can't be used to game the non-consecutive component of the action. For example, if wolves had a role that couldn't target the same person consecutively and a redirector, I would not want to allow for wolves to game the non-consecutive drawback with the redirect.
    that is an extremely niche example that game hosts can easily bypass with a disloyal modifier
    i have no idea what that is
    but assuming it does cover that issue then option 1 works
    disloyal means a role cannot work on a person of the same alignment, meaning that the redirector would only work on townies.
    "1 thing I will give you Dk, I think you are very good at manipulating.
    I don't mean that in a bad way, I just think you has this way with yourself.
    You know what to say and when to say [it]." ~VFP

  19. ISO #19
    Hype! Arapocalypse's Avatar Discord Moderator
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    Hmm, one possibility would be to make the "default" mafia redirector disloyal, to address what Bopolis was saying?

    By default, I mean have Modbot recommend the disloyal modifier when you add the Mafia Redirector role to your game's role list, like how the non-consecutive modifier is recommended when the Doctor role is added!!
    Message a ghost at Arapocalypse#0834!

    [9:07 AM] boq, bbt's boss: Be Boq
    [9:07 AM] boq, bbt's boss: Wait for the principal in the cafeteria
    [9:07 AM] boq, bbt's boss: Be offered coffee by the peeps there
    [9:08 AM] boq, bbt's boss: "Nice"
    [9:08 AM] boq, bbt's boss: Grab a random mug. Enjoy your coffee. Notice that it says "principal's mug" on it

  20. ISO #20
    I trust bopolis

    #i’mWithBop

  21. ISO #21
    Hype! Arapocalypse's Avatar Discord Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arapocalypse (#19)
    Hmm, one possibility would be to make the "default" mafia redirector disloyal, to address what Bopolis was saying?

    By default, I mean have Modbot recommend the disloyal modifier when you add the Mafia Redirector role to your game's role list, like how the non-consecutive modifier is recommended when the Doctor role is added!!
    This is in the case that Makaze goes with option 1, that is!!!

    Personally I don't really care that much which option is implemented, especially when you can alter it in Modbot anyway!!
    Message a ghost at Arapocalypse#0834!

    [9:07 AM] boq, bbt's boss: Be Boq
    [9:07 AM] boq, bbt's boss: Wait for the principal in the cafeteria
    [9:07 AM] boq, bbt's boss: Be offered coffee by the peeps there
    [9:08 AM] boq, bbt's boss: "Nice"
    [9:08 AM] boq, bbt's boss: Grab a random mug. Enjoy your coffee. Notice that it says "principal's mug" on it

  22. ISO #22
    Thread Analyst Kaiveran's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arapocalypse (#19)
    Hmm, one possibility would be to make the "default" mafia redirector disloyal, to address what Bopolis was saying?

    By default, I mean have Modbot recommend the disloyal modifier when you add the Mafia Redirector role to your game's role list, like how the non-consecutive modifier is recommended when the Doctor role is added!!
    This + Option 1 sounds like the best idea!

  23. ISO #23
    Galaxy Brain Jaleb's Avatar
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    Should note that target A should be the only disloyal target. Target B should still be able to target a mafia member.
    Quote Originally Posted by Empoof (#4961)
    it was jaleb

    @Jaleb is a god
    ??Frog ??Last Thursday at 8:11 AM
    Jaleb, you're lowkey Magnus

  24. ISO #24
    Low Hanging Fruit euklyd's Avatar
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    (1) is obviously correct assuming that consecutive restrictions are submission based (referring to it as submission restriction rather than targeting restriction because the final target can be different than the submitted target when hijacks are involved). Not convinced this is how it should work in a game like NOC forum mafia though.

    (2) probably has better play patterns - the only cases where it will come up are where someone is making a terrible / random mistake (town1 docs town2 n1, mafia thinks town1 is a vig and tries to get them to shoot town2 n2), or if there's something terribly degenerate going on with a role madness game (either maf/maf or a town play after a massclaim). Or it's OC role madness and the village leader is feeling cute. I don't think any of these are positive play patterns in forum mafia, where I'm assuming the goal of the game is not actually to gain advantage by abusing niche role synergies.

    The concern about introducing bad info can be mitigated by making the results reflect what actually happened - "ACTION was redirected to PLAYER, but failed since you performed it on PLAYER last night."

    Quote Originally Posted by Makaze (#1)
    How strongly do you feel about it, and why?
    Obviously I can't feel that strongly about it because I don't play mafia on MU. I do feel pretty strongly that the mechanics of the game should be shaped to encourage the most enjoyable play patterns, rather than fitting pieces into the existing mechanical framework just because it already exists.

    [Note that in games where subtle mechanical tricks are an encouraged form of skill expression I would go for (1) all the way.]

    Edit: I do disagree with the assertion that it's not actually a problem. Whether or not it will cause a problem depends much more on the context of the setup and the role being hijacked than the negative action economy of using two roles to bypass submission restrictions. It will not usually be a problem, but...

    Edit 2: Obviously it super doesn't matter because the number of times it will ever come up is minuscule, and it may not be worth it to put any amount of developer effort into doing anything but the most braindead simple option, but since the question is being asked...
    Last edited by euklyd; May 14th, 2022 at 07:40 AM.

  25. ISO #25
    Wants It More GGhana's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lute (#3)
    Option 1 because it's non-consecutive targeting. You're not doing the targeting, so no restriction. Some other bloke took your legal target and changed course. If you're not allowed to shoot JFK consecutively, so you aim at someone else and fire, but Magneto redirects the bullet into JFK, you followed your set of rules. This logic applies to both 2 and 3. Initial targeter is clear because they didn't shoot the same target consecutively and Magneto is clear because he had no restriction.

    It's also just more fun to allow abilities through whenever possible. Not to mention Option 2 is unintuitive in the sense that anyone who is not already aware of this specific Modbot interaction will be confused about the sudden appearance of a Roleblocker. In closed setups this would lead to role speculations based on faulty evidence provided by the software, and that should be near the tippy-top of things to avoid. Option 1 is the cleanest.
    theoretically doesn’t this open the setup up to being broken (such as forcing a doctor to heal a cop multiple times a night)
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  26. ISO #26
    Wants It More GGhana's Avatar
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    I personally would probably just have the redirect fail
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  27. ISO #27
    five people have died Apoc's Avatar Game Manager
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    Quote Originally Posted by lute (#3)
    Option 1 because it's non-consecutive targeting. You're not doing the targeting, so no restriction.
    Ya, except the name "non-consecutive targetting" is a non-sequitur.


    The intent of non consecutive targetting is to prevent a situation where a confirmed town PR can be protected indefinitely. People read the name and assume the "targetting" is somehow important, why would it be?

    The correct way to process this manually, is that the second protection, from any source, ALWAYS fails.



    Allowing redirects to circumvent consecutive protection is a massive flaw if allowed.


    2c
    Last edited by Apoc; May 14th, 2022 at 06:15 PM.

  28. ISO #28
    five people have died Apoc's Avatar Game Manager
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    implementing non-consecutive targetting instead of non-consecutive protection/roleblocks is a fine implementation for simpler games where there is only one doctor.

    But modbot is getting to a point where it can run pretty advanced stuff now, so if we end up in worlds where modbot games have towns with multiple protectives, scum with multiple roleblocks, and redirectors and other shenanigans are in the mix...

    Then maybe we should try to implement non-consecutive protection/blocks instead of just non-consecutive targetting?



    The other issue Makaze brought up in discord, is which option do you limit in the doctors UI dropdown on the night after the redirect?
    Anything other than the original target leads to modspew. But technically the original target was not protected and should be a valid option.

    Last edited by Apoc; May 14th, 2022 at 06:22 PM.

  29. ISO #29
    five people have died Apoc's Avatar Game Manager
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    Of the options listed i go with 2)

    but i think that should already be the case even without a redirect (e.g. a game with a doctor and JK targetting the same player sequentially)

  30. ISO #30
    τη καλλίστη Makaze's Avatar Administrator
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    Quote Originally Posted by Apoc (#27)
    Quote Originally Posted by lute (#3)
    Option 1 because it's non-consecutive targeting. You're not doing the targeting, so no restriction.
    Ya, except the name "non-consecutive targetting" is a non-sequitur.


    The intent of non consecutive targetting is to prevent a situation where a confirmed town PR can be protected indefinitely. People read the name and assume the "targetting" is somehow important, why would it be?

    The correct way to process this manually, is that the second protection, from any source, ALWAYS fails.



    Allowing redirects to circumvent consecutive protection is a massive flaw if allowed.


    2c
    Quote Originally Posted by Apoc (#28)
    implementing non-consecutive targetting instead of non-consecutive protection/roleblocks is a fine implementation for simpler games where there is only one doctor.

    But modbot is getting to a point where it can run pretty advanced stuff now, so if we end up in worlds where modbot games have towns with multiple protectives, scum with multiple roleblocks, and redirectors and other shenanigans are in the mix...

    Then maybe we should try to implement non-consecutive protection/blocks instead of just non-consecutive targetting?



    The other issue Makaze brought up in discord, is which option do you limit in the doctors UI dropdown on the night after the redirect?
    Anything other than the original target leads to modspew. But technically the original target was not protected and should be a valid option.

    :sparkleshrug:
    Quote Originally Posted by Apoc (#29)
    Of the options listed i go with 2)

    but i think that should already be the case even without a redirect (e.g. a game with a doctor and JK targetting the same player sequentially)
    Currently modbot treats it:

    If you submit an X-Shot power on A, and get blocked by B:
    - You did not visit anyone
    - You still lose your shot

    If you submit a doc on A, but get blocked by B:
    - You did not visit anyone
    - You cannot target A next night

    If you submit a doc on A, but your loyal or disloyal modifier causes your action to fail:
    - You did not visit anyone
    - You cannot target A next night

    Someone tried to propose a non-modspew solution in "let them try to target A every night even if they can't, and have their abilities silently fail if they make a mistake". Would that be a better player experience?
    Last edited by Makaze; May 14th, 2022 at 08:49 PM.
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  31. ISO #31
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    I for one do not think it is

  32. ISO #32
    Too long and too gay lute's Avatar
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    what setups are you people playing with these glaring mechanical flaws you're proposing will come up

    like at some point it's not a modbot problem
    Last edited by lute; May 15th, 2022 at 11:52 AM.
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    Little Princess, Little Princess, precious Little Princess.
    The little girl was as beautiful as a princess, but she was always all alone.
    The girl fround her grave. Today is the day of her funeral.
    And everyone lived happily ever after.

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    True story:
    Quote Originally Posted by Sett (#15734)
    Quote Originally Posted by theknightsofneeee (#15677)
    Quote Originally Posted by Phighter (#15664)
    Quote Originally Posted by theknightsofneeee (#15649)
    phighter make a case for me being a wolf other than I think you're a wolf

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    I don't need to, you shooting me after everything I've claimed is more than enough. I have a feeling Sheep may be an important mafia PR, because there is no reason a player with your reputation and skill level rushes something self-resolving without ulterior motives.
    yeah guys

    this is a villager right here /s

    he's called me a villager all game and he's only OMGUS'ing me after i've committed to pushing him for doing obviously wolfy things

    can't even fake a case as to why i'm a wolf cause there literally isn't one lmao
    Can you stop measuring your $%#!ing $%#!s for 2 minutes and realize you're probably both town?


  34. ISO #34
    τη καλλίστη Makaze's Avatar Administrator
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    Quote Originally Posted by Makaze (#30)
    Quote Originally Posted by Apoc (#27)
    Quote Originally Posted by lute (#3)
    Option 1 because it's non-consecutive targeting. You're not doing the targeting, so no restriction.
    Ya, except the name "non-consecutive targetting" is a non-sequitur.


    The intent of non consecutive targetting is to prevent a situation where a confirmed town PR can be protected indefinitely. People read the name and assume the "targetting" is somehow important, why would it be?

    The correct way to process this manually, is that the second protection, from any source, ALWAYS fails.



    Allowing redirects to circumvent consecutive protection is a massive flaw if allowed.


    2c
    Quote Originally Posted by Apoc (#28)
    implementing non-consecutive targetting instead of non-consecutive protection/roleblocks is a fine implementation for simpler games where there is only one doctor.

    But modbot is getting to a point where it can run pretty advanced stuff now, so if we end up in worlds where modbot games have towns with multiple protectives, scum with multiple roleblocks, and redirectors and other shenanigans are in the mix...

    Then maybe we should try to implement non-consecutive protection/blocks instead of just non-consecutive targetting?



    The other issue Makaze brought up in discord, is which option do you limit in the doctors UI dropdown on the night after the redirect?
    Anything other than the original target leads to modspew. But technically the original target was not protected and should be a valid option.

    :sparkleshrug:
    Quote Originally Posted by Apoc (#29)
    Of the options listed i go with 2)

    but i think that should already be the case even without a redirect (e.g. a game with a doctor and JK targetting the same player sequentially)
    Currently modbot treats it:

    If you submit an X-Shot power on A, and get blocked by B:
    - You did not visit anyone
    - You still lose your shot

    If you submit a doc on A, but get blocked by B:
    - You did not visit anyone
    - You cannot target A next night

    If you submit a doc on A, but your loyal or disloyal modifier causes your action to fail:
    - You did not visit anyone
    - You cannot target A next night

    Someone tried to propose a non-modspew solution in "let them try to target A every night even if they can't, and have their abilities silently fail if they make a mistake". Would that be a better player experience?
    @Apoc ?
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  35. ISO #35
    five people have died Apoc's Avatar Game Manager
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    Quote Originally Posted by Makaze (#34)
    Someone tried to propose a non-modspew solution in "let them try to target A every night even if they can't, and have their abilities silently fail if they make a mistake". Would that be a better player experience?
    That's a big question

    I won't pretend to answer for everyone, but that is probably how I'd run it at least.

    idk maybe it's a mash centric interpretation? but i feel like it was probably mash hosts who invented this idea in the first place


  36. ISO #36
    Wants It More GGhana's Avatar
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    also I should note I’m not in favour of option 2 since if you redirect someone to the same target twice then you’d have a guaranteed roleblock on the second night

    which seems silly

    And if redirects don’t affect non consecutive targeting then that potentially leads to a chain where you can bypass your non consecutive restriction I think?

    I think option 3 is the best imo
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  37. ISO #37
    τη καλλίστη Makaze's Avatar Administrator
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaleb (#9)
    Surprised it's not a poll

    I would say 1. I feel like non-consecutive should be a conscious restriction, while redirect would make the action unconscious.

    If there was a restriction saying that target C cannot be protected from kp two nights in a row, then player B's action will fail. This is more referring to a global ruling than player B's role though.
    Quote Originally Posted by soah (#13)
    I start by asking myself why the non-consecutive modifier exists. It exists because some roles would be overpowered if they can target the same player every night. The most obvious example would be a doctor protecting the same player every night so that they cannot be killed until the doctor is found and killed (or blocked).

    Option 1 would allow circumvention of the non-consecutive modifier to deliberately target the same player every night, but it would not be overpowered. It would require the use of two power roles to accomplish one task, and it would require the redirector to know the identity of the other role and who they are targeting each night. Realistically, this would only be possible with a wolf redirector targeting another wolf, and it would come at the cost of not being able to target a villager that night.

    So it would seem to me that options 2 and 3 are trying to solve a problem which isn't really a problem.
    Quote Originally Posted by bopolis (#17)
    Quote Originally Posted by bopolis (#16)
    Quote Originally Posted by DkKoba (#15)
    Quote Originally Posted by bopolis (#14)
    I would do option 2 only so the redirect can't be used to game the non-consecutive component of the action. For example, if wolves had a role that couldn't target the same person consecutively and a redirector, I would not want to allow for wolves to game the non-consecutive drawback with the redirect.
    that is an extremely niche example that game hosts can easily bypass with a disloyal modifier
    i have no idea what that is
    but assuming it does cover that issue then option 1 works
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaiveran (#22)
    Quote Originally Posted by Arapocalypse (#19)
    Hmm, one possibility would be to make the "default" mafia redirector disloyal, to address what Bopolis was saying?

    By default, I mean have Modbot recommend the disloyal modifier when you add the Mafia Redirector role to your game's role list, like how the non-consecutive modifier is recommended when the Doctor role is added!!
    This + Option 1 sounds like the best idea!
    Quote Originally Posted by euklyd (#24)
    (1) is obviously correct assuming that consecutive restrictions are submission based (referring to it as submission restriction rather than targeting restriction because the final target can be different than the submitted target when hijacks are involved). Not convinced this is how it should work in a game like NOC forum mafia though.

    (2) probably has better play patterns - the only cases where it will come up are where someone is making a terrible / random mistake (town1 docs town2 n1, mafia thinks town1 is a vig and tries to get them to shoot town2 n2), or if there's something terribly degenerate going on with a role madness game (either maf/maf or a town play after a massclaim). Or it's OC role madness and the village leader is feeling cute. I don't think any of these are positive play patterns in forum mafia, where I'm assuming the goal of the game is not actually to gain advantage by abusing niche role synergies.

    The concern about introducing bad info can be mitigated by making the results reflect what actually happened - "ACTION was redirected to PLAYER, but failed since you performed it on PLAYER last night."

    Quote Originally Posted by Makaze (#1)
    How strongly do you feel about it, and why?
    Obviously I can't feel that strongly about it because I don't play mafia on MU. I do feel pretty strongly that the mechanics of the game should be shaped to encourage the most enjoyable play patterns, rather than fitting pieces into the existing mechanical framework just because it already exists.

    [Note that in games where subtle mechanical tricks are an encouraged form of skill expression I would go for (1) all the way.]

    Edit: I do disagree with the assertion that it's not actually a problem. Whether or not it will cause a problem depends much more on the context of the setup and the role being hijacked than the negative action economy of using two roles to bypass submission restrictions. It will not usually be a problem, but...

    Edit 2: Obviously it super doesn't matter because the number of times it will ever come up is minuscule, and it may not be worth it to put any amount of developer effort into doing anything but the most braindead simple option, but since the question is being asked...
    These posts + euklyd's last edit sold me on Option 1. The arguments about #2 coincide heavily with wanting a kind of role-transcending game mechanic that requires getting rid of the modifier period and making up new rules for the bot to follow for all roles regardless of the modifiers on the roles themselves. I'm not going to implement that any time soon, if ever.

    Thank you for your opinions and arguments everyone!
    I hold you in the highest regard, my friends.


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