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Thread: Season 9, Game 8: Mafia! A musical revue [Mafia Championship] Night 4
Night 4 

  1. ISO #2301
    Thread Analyst The Penguin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Achromatic (#2300)
    And which order do you think the kills are going to go in a town achromatic world so that the final 5 or 3 does not include one of those two people, Penguin?
    So I am not fully sold on Digitals innocence, but I think that Saint and UG will die in the coming two days.

  2. ISO #2302
    Thread Analyst Mr. Turtle's Avatar
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    ISOing the PoE


    • p#52 & p#57 - RVS votes on Hectic. I'd like to think that this is a good look. To be honest, the vote could be a good way to distance. Overall, non alignment-indicative.
    • p#131 - An okay read, I guess. I don't see what led to it, it appears kinda out of the blue in the ISO.
    • p#144 & p#148 - This strikes me as towny, somewhat. Although it is easily fakeable, I also enjoy asking questions as scum, it makes me look involved.
    • p#325 - Enjoyable catch-up post. The Danger read focuses on details, which I like.
    • p#342, p#400, p#408 & p#524 - Okay, I get that the math mistake was somewhat a derp clear. But like, I don't see it as clearing. Maybe it's because I genuinely don't get the math behind it, but like... I think that unless you are scum and really spend a lot of time thinking "with x amount of mislynches and the Kingmaker idea, there is y chance that we'll make it to F7 all alive" , it's just an honest mistake. I'd give it a couple towny points, but it really isn't clearing.
    • p#350, p#353, p#356 & p#365 - Them being gung-ho and getting a bit ahead of themselves with the Kingmaker idea is towny, to be honest.
    • p#367 - There is a very real chance that I am reading too much into this, but this kinda pings me. The Johanna choice + the wording. I don't know, I feel like it's baseless. I'll call it NAI, but something just didn't agree with me there.
    • p#784 - It's interesting to me how their first RVS vote is on Hectic and so is their first ISO. Also - the mixed bag? 4+ and 5-? Three of the pluses come from standing by or stating a read and the other one comes from a post saying "Ehh is my favourite kind of feeling too". I shouldn't be saying anything since I was town-reading Hectic at the time, but I feel like the "mixed bag" route is the most ideal to go as partners.
    • p#801 - In their Gellert ISO they give 2- for something they describe as "mechanical and NAI" and don't give a single plus. I feel like in comparison to the Hectic ISO above ^ that it's meh.
    • p#802 - "Ohh, wait, people are talking about gellert atm, kek" when the Gellert conversation had started 90 minutes before (and Arete's case appeared even earlier) just seems forced in the sense of "hey guys, I'm mindmelding with you all too!" (fun fact: the preceding posts to this one were Achro and Ratchet mindmelding on what I presume to be their Gellert read).
    • p#809 - Right, so I would like this ISO if it were not for the fact that the Penguin first criticizes UGs p#83 (p#131) but then gives it a plus in p#809 without any explanation other than "willingness to read into stuff and affirm others reads". I get that this is nit-picky and that town can change their mind, but it's convenient for w!Pingu and goes with thread consensus (town-reading UG).
    • p#926 - I just wanted to note this one. This is in response to Celever saying that Penguin hasn't received any suspicion yet.
    • p#1034 & p#1059 - Calls me and Saint Gellert's scum-buddies which I feel is a bit baseless, because they didn't comment on either mine nor Saint's play up until now (+ why not Hectic? I thought he was a mixed bag)
    • p#1066 - Expresses doubts on Don's towniness, which I guess is fair, but also weird considering that they paired Gellert with Turtle and Saint, but not Don, who they allegedly didn't see as town-y and who was said to be aligned with Gellert. Not outright scummy. Just inconsistent.
    • p#1150 - Null-reading Celever is an okay look, Penguin doesn't really commit on Johanna either (similar to Hectic) which makes me
    • p#1324 -
    • p#1340 - This basically says that they understand why Arete is scum, but why Hectic? And that's of course a bit concerning. I won't condemn them for it, because that post obviously comes from late at night!Pingu who is tired, but it's still slightly scummy.
    • p#1467 - They scumlean Digital (only gave him 1+ and 6.25-) and Saint, but townlean Shawn. Since none of them have flipped, it's hard to draw a conclusion, but didn't Hectic vote Saint around the same time? The town-read on Dangerhaz is overwhelmingly positive, which is fair given the circumstances.
    • p#1484 voices support for an Arete lynch for information. Okay given the circumstances.
    • p#1491 - Follows Achro's read on Don, which I think is fair. They kinda didn't really talk about Don after D1, but it's not really that alignment-indicative.
    • p#1611 - Defends their stance on Saint. I guess this is fine? Like you don't have to towncore him, but also remembering that this was the largest counter-wagon to Hectic, wasn't it?
    • p#1786 - Acknowledges that Saint is now cleared and changes their read on Digitaldude. I think that is fair.
    • p#1790 - Agrees with UGs Hectic analysis on interactions, but doesn't seem to see that Johanna looks better. Small points in favor of Penguin if Johanna flips scum.
    • p#1792 & p#1793 - Agrees with clearing Celever (& Saint).
    • p#1794 & p#1795 - I think re-reading Don is towny here.
    • p#1801 - Says they were indifferent to Hectic in p#1340, which could be true but regardless isn't a good look. Personally, I feel that the answers here are okay-ish. Penguin is tired, so that might influence. Most of the answers regarding Hectic seem non-committal, like "indifferent" or not remembering why they ISOd Hectic first.
    • p#1803 - Expresses exhaustion, which I think is fair.
    • p#1887 & p#1902 is one of the first mentions of me and they immediately want to go to a Hectic/Johanna/Turtle world (they ISOd almost every other PoEd player, yet I get scum-read on the basis of a single question). Also yes, I am probably biased.
    • p#1939 - From my point of view, this isn't really great. Objectively, I guess it kinda unaligns them from Johanna and me? Like scum-reading two of the lowest posters for not having interactions with scum is eh to me. Like, I get it, kind of, but it's also easy.
    • p#2162 - I largely agree with this, I said something similar, maybe, probably. I think I did.
    • p#2164 - Kind of a quick vote on me. Also biased here. But first vote in the entire phase and justification is just a continuation of yesterday's reads.
    • p#2228 is a post I didn't like. Not necessarily alignment-indicative, but the trying to influence the subbed in players opinions is not really up my alley.
    • p#2282 "we have the winning formula" also didn't sit well to me, I feel like at this stage it's important that we re-assess and don't go with our old reads.
    • p#2297 - Obvious bias but I am not a "wolf desperately clinging on to his life"


    Okay, first off that was a big one. Secondly, I think I may be confbiased here? Like, going through the ISO I felt that my third eye opened, but I really doubt it. I think I may have been uncharitable because I felt that Penguin was most likely to be scum and therefore I wanted it to be true (+ about halfway through Achro voted Penguin too, which kinda gave my spirits a boost).

    But, regardless, my conclusion is that this looks bad. Like, they don't really interact with Hectic at all and most of their actions line up with Hectic's actions. They seem to call Hectic a mixed bag, say they were "indifferent" of Hectic - sounds like a null read. Yet this is where their first vote goes, their first ISO. But after D1 - they don't interact with Hectic whatsoever. I think the main issue I have here is that they flew under the radar after picking up early D1 town-reads. And like, there are things they have done that are towny. But unlike Digital (or to some extent, Johanna), I feel that it's not unfakeable. It's nothing that makes me go "why would scum!Pingu do that?". It's more small things (and again, especially early D1 shenanigans). I don't know, I guess I can see scum motives in a bunch of posts, but maybe I am being biased here? A second pair of eyes would be greatly appreciated. Additionally, the ISOs weren't really all that - a lot of it was non-committal. And Penguin was slow to town-read people such as Don, Saint or Celever, which strikes me as either Mafia not wanting to tighten the PoE or just a careful towny. However, I definitely think this is the best place to vote thus far.

    ##Vote The Penguin

  3. ISO #2303
    Soul Reader Achromatic's Avatar
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    Anyway I am going to do a full iso of Penguin and then be busy the rest of the day, but this I can do first. Here's Day 1 and 2.

    Their first several posts are just chit chatting.

    Post P#52 is an empty vote on Hectic. In P#57 Arete asks why and Penguin confirms it is just eh.

    P#66 doesn't feel partnered with Johanna

    P#131 is another confirmation that the vote on Hectic is not meant to be taken seriously.

    P#133 starts an entire chess conversation between Johanna and Penguin which would be strange if they were partnered. It feels psychology wise that way. Analytically it is stupid to talk about this but as it can be faked, but strange nonetheless.

    So Penguin and I had a brief interaction P#144, P#148, and P#165 where Penguin thinks to ask me to a question and... doesn't wait for me to answer. Such a small psychological thing, it's not worth building a case around, but it bothered me even then that Penguin didn't wait for my answer. It's early game, questions as town are meant to gather reads on your fellow players. It feels not genuine to ask someone a question and then go ISO them instead of waiting for an answer. After all, you can always ISO them after to see if the answer lines up. In fact, that would be a much more effective tact.

    P#325 posts a danger town read, a 'hard time trying to figure out Achro' read (maybe if they had let me answer the question early they would have had a better read) and a light lean on Digital.

    (Note my remark isn't a reason to wolf read Penguin, I am just being a smartass)

    P#330 responds to digital saying johanna and ratchet not wanting to read don's posts was NAI/lean town.

    Then Penguin discusses Kingmaker

    P#334 and P#342, napkin math pocketed me for awhile. Penguin puts up Johanna as their top pick which given the nature of Kingmaker and how a lot of people were on board with it (including wolf Hectic) makes me feel like that's reaaaally not aligned. P#353 I would be really, really surprised if Penguin nominated their wolf buddy Johanna as their rank one choice as that put a lot of pressure and suspicion on Johanna day one for her stance against it. I really can't see a Johanna/Penguin exact world due to this.

    P#367 always be wary of people giving compliments that are not true. 'I think they would make a good decision' to the person who hasn't won a game as town in over two years and has openly expressed being overwhelmed (at least partially not in jest) already in the topic. In hindsight, this is alarm bells of a opinion.

    P#372

    Ratchet, I love you from the grave. So penguin apparently doesn't know Johanna besides from this game.

    Why does a Town!Penguin have faith in a Town!Johanna to make a good decision day one based on the first 350 or so posts in this game? I want everyone to think on that and please answer.


    P#784 is an important one for me to read through, as it ended up being a 'mixed bag' for Hectic.

    Getting apparently upset at P#80 is just strange in this iso. There's nothing much to grab onto in this iso other than I think I actively disagreed with most of these +s at the time LOL. Mostly the don read/saint read being positives, but if everyone thinks there's something really good there I'd like to hear it.

    P#801 votes Gellert and in P#802 says they didn't realize that Gellert was being talked about. Not sure on the timing here but Gellert had been a discussion point for awhile then at this point. I wanted more out of Gellert at this point too so I can't fault this one.

    P#809 likes UG, which we all do it seems.

    P#926 I have said fresh eyes are interesting. Celever, dead person Celever who died after making four posts yesterday for some reason over more active and very town thought people like UG, is like "Huh, curious."

    It doesn't make a wolf case, just interesting as Ezra pointed out.

    P#933 quoted within is a big paragraph of nothing from Turtle about Penguin.

    P#1059 says turtle and saint would make excellent wolf buddies for gellert.

    P#1150 Penguin does an iso of Johanna that is a lean town with 'potential scum in her.'

    Now this P#1324 is... an amazing post in the current game state.

    'Have we done NKA? I will focus on Digital, Saint (town), Danger (town), Shawn.

    Incredibly, it does not occur to Penguin to focus on Hectic at this point. The person who was Ratchet's # 1 scum read. The person who last they checked in was a very mixed bag middle of day one.

    So another thing. Penguin reads my disgusting wall on Arete (I am sorry for putting this out there for you to read regardless of your alignment) and they post P#1340

    'I see a compelling case, but I cannot determine how you add Hectic in the mix.' Then mentions, after asking about NKA, that they can't dive into why Ratchet was killed atm. That's a pretty shifty answer on Hectic if I do say so myself.

    P#1467

    So this is just a really wolfy vote given the game state and their questions about NKA etc. Penguin asks about NKA, and then when Saint gives them NKA (that was right, btw), their ONLY comment was about themselves. I don't think it is very towny to ask about something (NKA) and when someone gives a big post breaking down NKA for it to then be ignored completely. Does not even stop to ask any questions about the NKA, just votes Saint.

    P#1473 is a cute post, but then I get to see ahcromatic of the past talking to me. "I hate that vote." I hate it even more in hindsight.

    Posts a towncore at P#1480 - no comments really other than at that point Johanna is slight town and now she is one of the two wolfiest people to Penguin, will try to find that progression day 3.

    P#1482 'I didn't pay attention to Hectic's vote' kind of rings hollow tbh.

    P#1611 is a bad case. I also think it is a wolf motivated case. P#1613 was their last post of the day, right before Arete voted for Hectic at P#1614 At the time of this post it was Johanna 3, Saint 2, and Hectic 2.

    I now know Arete is town. I now know Danger is town. I am pretty darn sure Saint is town too. So that leaves the only wolf equity on Hectic as either don or digital. But if it is Digital, then it makes a lot less sense for it to ever be johanna/digital because of digital's voting on her day 2. It bricks another w/w combo out of the current poe. So maybe digital just didn't give a $%#!. Maybe hectic took it upon himself to end day when he saw the chance. This is just idle speculation.


    This is long enough, I'll go over day 3 later.

  4. ISO #2304
    Soul Reader Achromatic's Avatar
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    eeey @Mr. Turtle we can compare ISOs

  5. ISO #2305
    Automatic Game Mod Mafia Host's Avatar
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    Season 9, Game 8: Mafia! A musical revue [Mafia Championship] Day 4 Votecount

    Votes Target Voters (Posts in Phase)
    2 The Penguin Achromatic (38), Mr. Turtle (20)
    1 Mr. Turtle The Penguin (29)
    1 Johanna Saint (15)
    5 Not voting Ezradekezra (7), Johanna (0), Ultimate-Gamer (14), digitaldude (16), don_3000 (11)

    View Vote History

    End day at majority is enabled. With 9 players alive, it takes 5 votes to reach majority.

    Day 4 ends at 2:00 PM EDT on Friday, June 24th, 2022. There are 1656093660000 remaining.

  6. ISO #2306
    Thread Analyst Mr. Turtle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Achromatic (#2304)
    eeey @Mr. Turtle we can compare ISOs
    Great cross-post, to be honest.

    I think that we agree on a lot. I genuinely considered a Penguin/Johanna team, but your ISO makes me realize that they probably aren't partnered. Too many early game interactions (and continued interactions). I think their non-committance (commission? I think I forgot the noun of 'commit') on Hectic is also pretty bad. I also think p#926 says a lot. Like, Celever first brought up how Penguin should be reckoned with D1 and continued to do so D3 - now they're dead. And they weren't really as towny as e.g. UG or Don, in my opinion.

  7. ISO #2307
    Shoes... Yum! Ultimate-Gamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Turtle (#2240)
    Quote Originally Posted by Ultimate-Gamer (#2238)
    All my reads from most townie to least townie are (before Ezra took over):
    Saint
    Don
    Penguin
    Achro
    Digital
    End of Town Core

    PoE:
    Turtle
    Shawn
    Johanna

    Ezra is new so we'll just have to see if they that slot moves up or down
    How confident are you that the PoE contains both Wolves?
    I am pretty hopeful but a little nervous/10 at the moment....

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Turtle (#2250)
    Towncore:

    Achro
    Don
    UG
    Saint
    Johanna
    Oh that's interesting...
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Turtle (#2250)
    Johanna
    Very interesting...

    Quote Originally Posted by Saint (#2258)
    Ultimate-Gamer - Level 3: Elite player - Town core. Why is he still alive?
    lol I am REALLY flattered thank you but I DO NOT think I'm an "elite player" at all. Like, some of the $%#! Achro, Arete, Ratchet and Celever said in their cases went right the $%#! over my head. They're like on a completely different level of playing over here.

    I think I'm JUST good enough that I spew towniness, but not so good that I'm a threat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Saint (#2262)
    ##Vote Ultimate-Gamer

    There is no such thing as a perfect game UG, you need to get one vote at least.
    lol this is nowhere NEAR a perfect game. Perfect game means no mis-eliminations. I voted for Arete

    Quote Originally Posted by Achromatic (#2303)
    Anyway I am going to do a full iso of Penguin and then be busy the rest of the day, but this I can do first. Here's Day 1 and 2.

    Their first several posts are just chit chatting.

    Post P#52 is an empty vote on Hectic. In P#57 Arete asks why and Penguin confirms it is just eh.

    P#66 doesn't feel partnered with Johanna

    P#131 is another confirmation that the vote on Hectic is not meant to be taken seriously.

    P#133 starts an entire chess conversation between Johanna and Penguin which would be strange if they were partnered. It feels psychology wise that way. Analytically it is stupid to talk about this but as it can be faked, but strange nonetheless.

    So Penguin and I had a brief interaction P#144, P#148, and P#165 where Penguin thinks to ask me to a question and... doesn't wait for me to answer. Such a small psychological thing, it's not worth building a case around, but it bothered me even then that Penguin didn't wait for my answer. It's early game, questions as town are meant to gather reads on your fellow players. It feels not genuine to ask someone a question and then go ISO them instead of waiting for an answer. After all, you can always ISO them after to see if the answer lines up. In fact, that would be a much more effective tact.

    P#325 posts a danger town read, a 'hard time trying to figure out Achro' read (maybe if they had let me answer the question early they would have had a better read) and a light lean on Digital.

    (Note my remark isn't a reason to wolf read Penguin, I am just being a smartass)

    P#330 responds to digital saying johanna and ratchet not wanting to read don's posts was NAI/lean town.

    Then Penguin discusses Kingmaker

    P#334 and P#342, napkin math pocketed me for awhile. Penguin puts up Johanna as their top pick which given the nature of Kingmaker and how a lot of people were on board with it (including wolf Hectic) makes me feel like that's reaaaally not aligned. P#353 I would be really, really surprised if Penguin nominated their wolf buddy Johanna as their rank one choice as that put a lot of pressure and suspicion on Johanna day one for her stance against it. I really can't see a Johanna/Penguin exact world due to this.

    P#367 always be wary of people giving compliments that are not true. 'I think they would make a good decision' to the person who hasn't won a game as town in over two years and has openly expressed being overwhelmed (at least partially not in jest) already in the topic. In hindsight, this is alarm bells of a opinion.

    P#372

    Ratchet, I love you from the grave. So penguin apparently doesn't know Johanna besides from this game.

    Why does a Town!Penguin have faith in a Town!Johanna to make a good decision day one based on the first 350 or so posts in this game? I want everyone to think on that and please answer.


    P#784 is an important one for me to read through, as it ended up being a 'mixed bag' for Hectic.

    Getting apparently upset at P#80 is just strange in this iso. There's nothing much to grab onto in this iso other than I think I actively disagreed with most of these +s at the time LOL. Mostly the don read/saint read being positives, but if everyone thinks there's something really good there I'd like to hear it.

    P#801 votes Gellert and in P#802 says they didn't realize that Gellert was being talked about. Not sure on the timing here but Gellert had been a discussion point for awhile then at this point. I wanted more out of Gellert at this point too so I can't fault this one.

    P#809 likes UG, which we all do it seems.

    P#926 I have said fresh eyes are interesting. Celever, dead person Celever who died after making four posts yesterday for some reason over more active and very town thought people like UG, is like "Huh, curious."

    It doesn't make a wolf case, just interesting as Ezra pointed out.

    P#933 quoted within is a big paragraph of nothing from Turtle about Penguin.

    P#1059 says turtle and saint would make excellent wolf buddies for gellert.

    P#1150 Penguin does an iso of Johanna that is a lean town with 'potential scum in her.'

    Now this P#1324 is... an amazing post in the current game state.

    'Have we done NKA? I will focus on Digital, Saint (town), Danger (town), Shawn.

    Incredibly, it does not occur to Penguin to focus on Hectic at this point. The person who was Ratchet's # 1 scum read. The person who last they checked in was a very mixed bag middle of day one.

    So another thing. Penguin reads my disgusting wall on Arete (I am sorry for putting this out there for you to read regardless of your alignment) and they post P#1340

    'I see a compelling case, but I cannot determine how you add Hectic in the mix.' Then mentions, after asking about NKA, that they can't dive into why Ratchet was killed atm. That's a pretty shifty answer on Hectic if I do say so myself.

    P#1467

    So this is just a really wolfy vote given the game state and their questions about NKA etc. Penguin asks about NKA, and then when Saint gives them NKA (that was right, btw), their ONLY comment was about themselves. I don't think it is very towny to ask about something (NKA) and when someone gives a big post breaking down NKA for it to then be ignored completely. Does not even stop to ask any questions about the NKA, just votes Saint.

    P#1473 is a cute post, but then I get to see ahcromatic of the past talking to me. "I hate that vote." I hate it even more in hindsight.

    Posts a towncore at P#1480 - no comments really other than at that point Johanna is slight town and now she is one of the two wolfiest people to Penguin, will try to find that progression day 3.

    P#1482 'I didn't pay attention to Hectic's vote' kind of rings hollow tbh.

    P#1611 is a bad case. I also think it is a wolf motivated case. P#1613 was their last post of the day, right before Arete voted for Hectic at P#1614 At the time of this post it was Johanna 3, Saint 2, and Hectic 2.

    I now know Arete is town. I now know Danger is town. I am pretty darn sure Saint is town too. So that leaves the only wolf equity on Hectic as either don or digital. But if it is Digital, then it makes a lot less sense for it to ever be johanna/digital because of digital's voting on her day 2. It bricks another w/w combo out of the current poe. So maybe digital just didn't give a $%#!. Maybe hectic took it upon himself to end day when he saw the chance. This is just idle speculation.


    This is long enough, I'll go over day 3 later.
    Oh this is interesting... Crap I might have to go over and ISO him myself.

  8. ISO #2308
    Soul Reader Achromatic's Avatar
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    @Mr. Turtle

    How does P#1790 look to you (and everyone else) when you realize that Penguin's last read on Johanna day 2 was a town lean.

    Not sure how they got there but I also haven't read day 3 iso yet.

  9. ISO #2309
    Thread Analyst The Penguin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by digitaldude (#2296)
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Turtle (#2294)
    Quote Originally Posted by digitaldude (#2289)
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Turtle (#2278)
    I don't want to sow (sew?) doubts and mistrust amongst ourselves, but you have to know that I'm not super comfortable with the current towncore that many have. From my perspective, people who have Turtle/Johanna/Shawn as the PoE have no room for error - once I flip town both Shawn/Ezra and Johanna have to be the two wolves. This is certainly possible, but it makes me uneasy that that PoE literally only has one winning combination.

    So I guess this is just a call to keep your mind open to other mafia team combinations.
    If there is at least one mafia in those 3 then the game goes to last three players. Do you believe that the two mafia are actually in the non poe players?
    Do I believe both to be in the non-PoE players? No, I think that'd be really unfortunate. As the time goes by, my town-read on Johanna is fading bit by bit (her absence this day phase has done nothing to change that), but I think it's an okay assumption that there is a scum in Shawn/Johanna. I just wouldn't bet the game that both are in there.

    Quote Originally Posted by digitaldude (#2291)
    Going back to day 3, I had johanna/arete/shawn/don as the suspected mafia. Now obviously arete isnt mafia.
    What are your thoughts on Don currently?

    Also, when you have a chance could you answer the questions I pinged you at in the box in p#2255?
    Same as before, what do you think about don?
    Turtle, could you answer this question?

  10. ISO #2310
    Thread Analyst Saint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Penguin (#2299)
    Quote Originally Posted by Achromatic (#2298)
    The thing is, it's really not about Turtle for me. Turtle/you makes perfect sense to me and then perhaps by that measure it means that turtle being the lynch today is totally fine and dandy but then I look at that interaction chart and notice johanna/turtle is green but you/turtle isn't and I go 'hm, okay.'

    I feel like less easily come to conclusions are best said earlier to get them out there. My mistake with Arete is I was sloppy and didn't reign in my excitement for playing mafia in. I could have been much more measured. Ultimately day 2 resulted in a success and maybe day 3 turns out better if I don't bombard Arete early day 2 with what wasn't even meant to be a cogent case.

    I would be more okay going down the line of Turtle/Shwan/Johanna (maybe) but given half the game is already preparing the axe for me if this makes it to mylo, I feel as if I have extra incentive to trust myself more than everyone else, which is unfortunate because I really want to play a team game but if it's achromatic is right or death achromatic might as well say his opinion.

    No one is compelled to vote with me, of course. Working on an iso for you now, Penguin.
    You say that people are preparing the axe for you, but I have only really noticed Saint and I think it was Digital
    Hold up, get the facts first. I was pissed off at the missed lynch. I called him on it. He owed up to his mistake. This part for me is settled and not related how I feel about Achro in general.

  11. ISO #2311
    Thread Analyst The Penguin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saint (#2310)
    Quote Originally Posted by The Penguin (#2299)
    Quote Originally Posted by Achromatic (#2298)
    The thing is, it's really not about Turtle for me. Turtle/you makes perfect sense to me and then perhaps by that measure it means that turtle being the lynch today is totally fine and dandy but then I look at that interaction chart and notice johanna/turtle is green but you/turtle isn't and I go 'hm, okay.'

    I feel like less easily come to conclusions are best said earlier to get them out there. My mistake with Arete is I was sloppy and didn't reign in my excitement for playing mafia in. I could have been much more measured. Ultimately day 2 resulted in a success and maybe day 3 turns out better if I don't bombard Arete early day 2 with what wasn't even meant to be a cogent case.

    I would be more okay going down the line of Turtle/Shwan/Johanna (maybe) but given half the game is already preparing the axe for me if this makes it to mylo, I feel as if I have extra incentive to trust myself more than everyone else, which is unfortunate because I really want to play a team game but if it's achromatic is right or death achromatic might as well say his opinion.

    No one is compelled to vote with me, of course. Working on an iso for you now, Penguin.
    You say that people are preparing the axe for you, but I have only really noticed Saint and I think it was Digital
    Hold up, get the facts first. I was pissed off at the missed lynch. I called him on it. He owed up to his mistake. This part for me is settled and not related how I feel about Achro in general.
    What about P#2258 then?

  12. ISO #2312
    Soul Reader Achromatic's Avatar
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    Penguin day 3 and then Chris gets to go hang out and chill most of the day.

    P#1785 is frankly a thin defense against what Celever is saying. Because they try to shield themselves on day 2 by noting their confusion on my case, but it doesn't explain why they asked about NKA and then quietly never returned to it. Also those day 1 posts cited include a vote they admit wasn't a serious vote, but on day 3 they try to cite it as an actual interaction when pressed by Celever. That's just really strange to me from a town mindset. Some of this can be easily excuse in isolation, but why bring up an admitted nothing vote? In my last post I brought up 2-3 posts from Penguin where they said this was a nothing serious vote.

    P#1793 drops Johanna was from their 'town lean' category for the first time and puts them at 'the rest' without any visible progression in thread.

    P#1801 I will believe the stated reason for less investment, that's not at all an issue here, but they don't really say anything new here.

    P#1939 they go through hectic/turtle/johanna and said the team is viable which is not a bad thing in and of itself.

    They comment on P#516 and I don't even know what they are trying to say here about Johanna. Hectic was talking about agreeing with Ratchet and disagreeing with Johanna about kingmaker. @The Penguin could you explain why you thought this was possibly wolf/wolf? I am lost.

    Penguin's commentary on P#534 is interesting. " puts 2 confirmed town in the kingmaker idea, me as mafia would put the third one as one of my companions." But for turtle/johanna, the team you liked the most to be true, hectic's list also contains a mafia buddy in mr turtle in the third spot, the same place you put hectic. I don't know what to make of that.

    Anyway backing up you end the post with 'the team is plausible.'

    So anyway they come into today full blast with confidence in Turtle/Johana world in P#2164

    Backing up, I just realized that really Penguin's reads seem first solidify from my post in P#1902.

    P#1903 asks if they should vote arete and when the answer is 'no' then they decide to iso themselves.


    Not a lot to unpack here to be honest. For sure less drive as the game has gone on to do independent solving, which is usually a wolf tell as it is easier to come out swinging than it is to continue to swing.

    Will be interested to hear everyone's thoughts.

  13. ISO #2313
    Thread Analyst Saint's Avatar
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    ^ That's were my mind is at. Achro worries me and I'm not shy in admitting it in public.

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    Season 9, Game 8: Mafia! A musical revue [Mafia Championship] Day 4 Votecount

    Votes Target Voters (Posts in Phase)
    2 The Penguin Achromatic (40), Mr. Turtle (21)
    1 Mr. Turtle The Penguin (31)
    1 Johanna Saint (17)
    5 Not voting Ezradekezra (7), Johanna (0), Ultimate-Gamer (15), digitaldude (16), don_3000 (11)

    View Vote History

    End day at majority is enabled. With 9 players alive, it takes 5 votes to reach majority.

    Day 4 ends at 2:00 PM EDT on Friday, June 24th, 2022. There are 1656093660000 remaining.

  15. ISO #2315
    Thread Analyst Mr. Turtle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Achromatic (#2308)
    @Mr. Turtle

    How does P#1790 look to you (and everyone else) when you realize that Penguin's last read on Johanna day 2 was a town lean.

    Not sure how they got there but I also haven't read day 3 iso yet.
    I think it was mostly in regards to the Hectic spew? So it's not necessarily related to the read, moreso to why Hectic spewed Johanna town. Could be genuine. I don't really think their read on Johanna was that strong as town, but it is a minor inconsistency.

  16. ISO #2316
    Thread Analyst Mr. Turtle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Penguin (#2309)
    Quote Originally Posted by digitaldude (#2296)
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Turtle (#2294)
    Quote Originally Posted by digitaldude (#2289)
    If there is at least one mafia in those 3 then the game goes to last three players. Do you believe that the two mafia are actually in the non poe players?
    Do I believe both to be in the non-PoE players? No, I think that'd be really unfortunate. As the time goes by, my town-read on Johanna is fading bit by bit (her absence this day phase has done nothing to change that), but I think it's an okay assumption that there is a scum in Shawn/Johanna. I just wouldn't bet the game that both are in there.

    Quote Originally Posted by digitaldude (#2291)
    Going back to day 3, I had johanna/arete/shawn/don as the suspected mafia. Now obviously arete isnt mafia.
    What are your thoughts on Don currently?

    Also, when you have a chance could you answer the questions I pinged you at in the box in p#2255?
    Same as before, what do you think about don?
    Turtle, could you answer this question?
    Oop, I didn't see it. I've liked Don's posting. He expresses his own reads, has in general been transparent. Gellert and him are probably w/w. Overall, he's been quite pure. (I also still like the flavor-posting).

  17. ISO #2317
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    Retrospective Day 1 Votecount as of Post #784

    Post #784 was originally posted at 5:19 AM EDT on Wednesday, June 15th, 2022.

    Votes Target Voters (Posts in Phase)
    3 Hectic The Penguin (39), Ratchet (104), Ultimate-Gamer (51)
    3 Celever Arete (57), Dangerhaz (47), don_3000 (65)
    2 Gellert Hectic (64), Achromatic (137)
    1 Ezradekezra Gellert (13)
    1 Arete Johanna (43)
    1 Achromatic digitaldude (56)
    4 Not voting Celever (19), Ezradekezra (3), Mr. Turtle (19), Saint (47)

    View Vote History

    Requested by Ultimate-Gamer.

  18. ISO #2318
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    Posting this here for prosperity's sake, still going over the ISO

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    Thread Analyst Saint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by digitaldude (#2171)
    Quote Originally Posted by Achromatic (#2153)
    Quote Originally Posted by Saint (#2150)
    ##Vote Achromatic

    Two days ... Two bloody long days of torturing wall posts why Arete is scum only for a miss lynch.... And now Celever ffs.
    I stand by that out of my poe of five from hectic interactions arete had the worst of them. I didn't hear a lot of disagreement about this fact as I asked everyone to comment on it. I got some vague feelings about not wanting to lynch him for honestly kind of bad reasons like effort. I was most worried about a deep wolf first and foremost because once you narrow that possibility it becomes more straight forward.
    Can you post an update chart with arete as townie?
    @Achromatic in case you missed this.

  20. ISO #2320
    Soul Reader Achromatic's Avatar
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    Are you asking for an updated one as in removing the town people who have died since then or asking for updated interactions as well.

  21. ISO #2321
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    My plans got canceled rip.

    Will be interested to see if UG gets the same light bulb as I did about P#784 when I saw those vote totals.

  22. ISO #2322
    Soul Reader digitaldude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Achromatic (#2320)
    Are you asking for an updated one as in removing the town people who have died since then or asking for updated interactions as well.
    The first one.

  23. ISO #2323
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    I forget if I changed anything on this while looking at it over night, so if you have questions let me know @digitaldude



    All living non-me town members + known wolf.

  24. ISO #2324
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    Ah I see I do have an error or two in there. I have digital/penguin as both. At the moment I forget which one is correct for interactions between those two based on what I had EOD2. I also have Don/Penguin as both, and that was meant to be not w/w I remember.

    if you spot any more anyone let me know.

  25. ISO #2325
    Soul Reader Achromatic's Avatar
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    Anyway since my day is a little less fun a few Johanna posts that make me think 'not wolf' at the moment, nice and simple and not too bloated.

    P#1310 is kind of asking for it with the matrix chart.

    P#1424 unlike Penguin, Johanna really likes the post from Saint going for Hectic's heads.

    P#1427 makes it known that Hectic is *the play* which was correct and at that time not at all a given for the day with herself facing doubts, Saint having votes, and me off in Arete-land.

    P#1486 she outright laughs at Penguin's vote, which would honestly be some great acting if w/w lol

    P#1494 follows up with penguin

    And that was it for Johanna day 2.

    I think if nothing else she at least engaged with Hectic content day 2 and also suitably liked Saint for providing that content.

    Like it's not clearing but out of the lot I feel like Johanna had the best stance on Hectic day 2 out of anyone in the PoE.

  26. ISO #2326
    Thread Analyst Saint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Achromatic (#2325)
    Anyway since my day is a little less fun a few Johanna posts that make me think 'not wolf' at the moment, nice and simple and not too bloated.

    P#1310 is kind of asking for it with the matrix chart.

    P#1424 unlike Penguin, Johanna really likes the post from Saint going for Hectic's heads.

    P#1427 makes it known that Hectic is *the play* which was correct and at that time not at all a given for the day with herself facing doubts, Saint having votes, and me off in Arete-land.

    P#1486 she outright laughs at Penguin's vote, which would honestly be some great acting if w/w lol

    P#1494 follows up with penguin

    And that was it for Johanna day 2.

    I think if nothing else she at least engaged with Hectic content day 2 and also suitably liked Saint for providing that content.

    Like it's not clearing but out of the lot I feel like Johanna had the best stance on Hectic day 2 out of anyone in the PoE.
    ##Unvote Johanna

    @Ultimate-Gamer , Penguin or Turtle? And Why?

  27. ISO #2327
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    Okay... Lemme see if I can find anything that stands out. NGL, reading giant ISOs like this are pretty daunting. I'll see how far I can get in a reasonable amount of time.

    p#334 looks very promising. I like this response to kingmaker. Almost no hesitation. About on par with what I'd expect from someone who is not mafia.

    p#342 the math post. Looks pretty good honestly. I like it. It's been discussed before but I still think it stands as townie.

    Very next post picks Johanna as top Kingmaker spot, which is what I had, and since she's one of my top scum reads this tracks considerably. Would scum penguin put BOTH of their scum buddies on their top 3?

    p#400 looks even better than the mast post imo. It's one thing to post math to back up a post, it's another thing to post wrong math, not get called out, but own up to it in a way that doesn't benefit you at all. Very very good.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Penguin (#784)
    Okay, I said that I am gonna spend around an hour doing ISOs (-_-) (This is like the worst part for me, goddamn life getting in the way of focusing on mafia).

    Hectic


    P#24 feels like getting out of the game to appear to solve people in a way that appears helpful. In it self, it doesnt say how they really came to the conclusion and starting with a read is "pro-town" if you get what I am saying. -

    Their response (P#61) to my vote does feel a bit more townie though, since there isnt much to really go against. +

    I $%#!ing hope that P#80 was some kinda ploy to get something out of it. I havent seen anything relating back to why and how this was used. In the case nothing is ever related back, it is not townie.

    P#93 shows a true intention of appearing in the thread, rather than solving. --

    P#175 is similar to P#80, not sure why you would even do something more since it is only ~90 posts later. This thing of just doing random lists might just be NAI.

    The way he stands by his read of don in P#190 feels good. +

    In P#495 they seem to care a lot about the game state regarding Achro, in my experience that is not a good sign. -

    The saint reads show some deeper thought in way that is cohearent and makes sense. +

    P#725 has a good case on Turtle imo, dont see exactly what the vote from Gellert comes from, but hey, thats a okay. +

    After this there isnt much for me, so the call backs to P#80 and P#175 never really happen, so that is like -

    All in all he gets 4 pluses and 5 minuses so like a mixed bag.




    Imma get some food and then return to ISO some others.
    This is also a very VERY good analysis I like this a lot... Like, I don't think anyone asked for this ISO so to go into a good deep dive at this point certainly looks pretty townie to me. I posted the vote count in the thread at the time of this post and Penguin was the first person on the wagon. If this is a bussing situation penguin would have landed on "scum" not "mixed bag" I think. Also if this was a bussing situation I don't think Hectic would be voting Gelert? Like why start a counter wagon if you plan on bussing this early.

    p#801, this vote looks... Okay. It's more or less in line with what I see other townies listing. Doesn't ping me one way or the other.

    p#926 asking for an analysis is also points in favor of town. This causes people to deep dive them, which scum don't like. They didn't NEED to do this, it doesn't really gain them any town cred, it was just a "oh fun do me next" thing which looks really good.

    Quote Originally Posted by Celever (#972)
    Quote Originally Posted by The Penguin (#39)
    Quote Originally Posted by digitaldude (#36)
    Quote Originally Posted by Achromatic (#31)
    What do you hope to accomplish by voting me?
    I start off with a random vote day 1 every game I play.
    Why just Achromatic?
    Quote Originally Posted by The Penguin (#52)
    All right, kinda wanna vote so ##Vote Hectic
    Odd relationship between these two posts. Seems not to understand RVS but then participates in it shortly after. Why question the Archo vote if you're familiar with RVS? -
    However.... This is something I didn't really notice before and it actually peeks my interest. This IS a very good point...

    That's it for Day 1 Looks pretty damn townie to me. There's a couple weird things here and there like Celever pointed out but overall I don't think that alone moves me. I think it makes MORE sense that he just had good perception. think he spews pretty townie energy.

    p#1150 isn't day 1 (I'll do Day2 later if I have the time) but disagrees with Arete's analysis on Celever (which concluded that Celever had wold equity) in a way that feels genuine. I like it a lot. This is also the post where they iso's Johanna and comes up null.

    TLDR, as of Day1 at least penguin is coming up pretty townie from my pov.

  28. ISO #2328
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    Quote Originally Posted by Achromatic (#2308)
    @Mr. Turtle

    How does P#1790 look to you (and everyone else) when you realize that Penguin's last read on Johanna day 2 was a town lean.

    Not sure how they got there but I also haven't read day 3 iso yet.
    Oh this was directed at me originally. I'll get into it as soon as I have a moment.

  29. ISO #2329
    Soul Reader Achromatic's Avatar
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    Well at least UG and I agree about Johanna/Penguin not being a thing.

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    What'd you gather from that vote count Achro?

  31. ISO #2331
    Soul Reader Achromatic's Avatar
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    I thought that, with wolf Penguin in mind, that iso happened so they could move on from their early vote. It might have explained why Penguin couldn't give Arete an answer when Arete asked why they chose to ISO Hectic day one.

    I was like "oh, that would be one good reason."

  32. ISO #2332
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    Oh I hadn't thought about that... That's not a bad point honestly...

  33. ISO #2333
    Soul Reader Achromatic's Avatar
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    Love how you dissect things tbh. It is so obvious where the disagreements in alignment happen and how that creates ripples with your other reads. Eager to hear what you think about day 2 Penguin re: saint and Hectic and also my simple guide to day 2 Johanna.

  34. ISO #2334
    Thread Analyst Saint's Avatar
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    Just on a side note for mobile users. Vapour style is much easier to read btw

  35. ISO #2335
    Thread Analyst Saint's Avatar
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    Guys, am I just blonde or did Turtle not have me in his ISO?

  36. ISO #2336
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saint (#2335)
    Guys, am I just blonde or did Turtle not have me in his ISO?
    Of Penguin? He mentions you a few times.

  37. ISO #2337
    Thread Analyst Saint's Avatar
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    Quick replies seem to work on Vapour

  38. ISO #2338
    Thread Analyst Saint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Achromatic (#2336)
    Quote Originally Posted by Saint (#2335)
    Guys, am I just blonde or did Turtle not have me in his ISO?
    Of Penguin? He mentions you a few times.
    But not me highlighted or bold - individual ISO

  39. ISO #2339
    Thread Analyst Saint's Avatar
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    Apology - Vaporwave

  40. ISO #2340
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saint (#2338)
    Quote Originally Posted by Achromatic (#2336)
    Quote Originally Posted by Saint (#2335)
    Guys, am I just blonde or did Turtle not have me in his ISO?
    Of Penguin? He mentions you a few times.
    But not me highlighted or bold - individual ISO
    I believe he mentioned ISO'ing the PoE. You do realize you are seen as town cleared, right? Or did someone say something silly.

  41. ISO #2341
    Thread Analyst Saint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Achromatic (#2340)
    Quote Originally Posted by Saint (#2338)
    Quote Originally Posted by Achromatic (#2336)
    Quote Originally Posted by Saint (#2335)
    Guys, am I just blonde or did Turtle not have me in his ISO?
    Of Penguin? He mentions you a few times.
    But not me highlighted or bold - individual ISO
    I believe he mentioned ISO'ing the PoE. You do realize you are seen as town cleared, right? Or did someone say something silly.
    O, just didn't want it to be seen him distancing himself from me in case he flipped scum.

  42. ISO #2342
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    Saint let me say something with no reservation. If you are wolf you are going to be seen as legendary. lol

  43. ISO #2343
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    Quote Originally Posted by Achromatic (#2342)
    Saint let me say something with no reservation. If you are wolf you are going to be seen as legendary. lol
    Lmao, Just paranoia I suppose.

  44. ISO #2344
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Penguin (#1790)
    Okay, I went back and fully read P#1669 (I missed the spoiler part of it, kek) and yes, it looks good. Though I dont see the Johanna part of it. Could my you, UG, please continue the train of thought on Johanna?
    This was pretty early in Day 3.

    During Day 1, my entire read on Johanna up to that point was her non-commitment on the game. They made almost no reads, put in very little work to contribute.

    Seemed overwhelmed in a way that indicated frightened scum rather than a townie who is in over their head. Scum, especially scum in a new environment, especially scum who don't like playing as scum will get overwhelmed and frustrated and not do quite as well as they might otherwise do in other situations.

    Her reaction to kingmaker pinged me considerably as a very scummy response to the idea. Not seeing the merit is one thing. Flat out refusing to participate because you know how badly it'd hurt you as scum is something else

    All these on their would be fine, even null, but in the words of the greatest scum hunter I've ever known, Chiaki Nanami,

    If it was just one coincidence, it'd be fine... But when it's one right after another... I wonder... Is something like that even possible?
    After that we'd gotten the Hectic flip. This was the point where Arete was starting to look worse and by extension, their push on Johanna made Johanna look better. My read on them softened considerably and I spent day 3 clearing my town block rather than focusing on my scum read on Johanna.

    And here we are Day 4, Arete was town. I'm back to my scum read on Johanna.

    I think this post kinda goes all over the place but hopefully it makes sense 😅

  45. ISO #2345
    Soul Reader Achromatic's Avatar
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    @Ultimate-Gamer can I get your eyes on my thoughts to these Penguin posts? I don't believe they were covered in our ISO

    P#367 always be wary of people giving compliments that are not true. 'I think they would make a good decision' to the person who hasn't won a game as town in over two years and has openly expressed being overwhelmed (at least partially not in jest) already in the topic. In hindsight, this is alarm bells of a opinion.

    P#372

    Ratchet, I love you from the grave. So penguin apparently doesn't know Johanna besides from this game.

    Why does a Town!Penguin have faith in a Town!Johanna to make a good decision day one based on the first 350 or so posts in this game? I want everyone to think on that and please answer.

  46. ISO #2346
    Thread Analyst Saint's Avatar
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    @Achromatic and @Ultimate-Gamer when time permit ... Please ...

    Any posts that might have lead w/Johanna to want to kill our fallen comrades?

    I get why Ratchet was night killed as he had Hectic under a lot of pressure, bare in mind Ratchet also had FOS on Johanna day 1.

    I'd look for it myself, but it's going to take forever now on mobile.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Achromatic (#2345)
    @Ultimate-Gamer can I get your eyes on my thoughts to these Penguin posts? I don't believe they were covered in our ISO

    P#367 always be wary of people giving compliments that are not true. 'I think they would make a good decision' to the person who hasn't won a game as town in over two years and has openly expressed being overwhelmed (at least partially not in jest) already in the topic. In hindsight, this is alarm bells of a opinion.

    P#372

    Ratchet, I love you from the grave. So penguin apparently doesn't know Johanna besides from this game.

    Why does a Town!Penguin have faith in a Town!Johanna to make a good decision day one based on the first 350 or so posts in this game? I want everyone to think on that and please answer.
    p#367 ... I can kinda see your point? I don't know it seems like a bit of a reach. Like if circumstances had changed a bit I could kinda see that pov. Johanna DOES seem intelligent for what it's worth. Like I don't know her either but by that point if you'd asked me if I thought she was smart I'd probably say "yeah she seems intelligent I guess". But you're right, Johanna HAD been overwhelmed to that point. It'd make more sense from a townie perspective to say "I think Johanna is scum and this would put pressure on her" so yeah I'll admit this looks weird.

  48. ISO #2348
    Soul Reader Achromatic's Avatar
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    Ratchet's last point on Johanna was refuting Arete's case D1

    Quote Originally Posted by Ratchet (#1117)
    Quote Originally Posted by Arete (#1110)
    I think Johanna looks very bad if Gellert is town and very good if he's mafia
    I think I follow why, but if you'd be so kind as to explain this? FTR, probably because of how Johanna settled on the vote without any real commitment to it.

    My counterpoint to that is, when I said Achro and myself were running out of posts and were the most vocal on Celever's counterwagon, Johanna interjected, in a way that demonstrated that she belonged in the group of those who will not vocally be in support of the wagon, which suggests to me she takes some ownership of her contribution there.

    But also this is neutral since I think Ratchet was killed due to Hectic.

    Danger was asking a lot of questions about Johanna, but it makes more sense to me that he was killed in hindsight due to thinking me/arete was town on town, but for sure there was some questioning there.

    Celever I don't recall off hand.

  49. ISO #2349
    Soul Reader Achromatic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ultimate-Gamer (#2347)
    Quote Originally Posted by Achromatic (#2345)
    @Ultimate-Gamer can I get your eyes on my thoughts to these Penguin posts? I don't believe they were covered in our ISO

    P#367 always be wary of people giving compliments that are not true. 'I think they would make a good decision' to the person who hasn't won a game as town in over two years and has openly expressed being overwhelmed (at least partially not in jest) already in the topic. In hindsight, this is alarm bells of a opinion.

    P#372

    Ratchet, I love you from the grave. So penguin apparently doesn't know Johanna besides from this game.

    Why does a Town!Penguin have faith in a Town!Johanna to make a good decision day one based on the first 350 or so posts in this game? I want everyone to think on that and please answer.
    p#367 ... I can kinda see your point? I don't know it seems like a bit of a reach. Like if circumstances had changed a bit I could kinda see that pov. Johanna DOES seem intelligent for what it's worth. Like I don't know her either but by that point if you'd asked me if I thought she was smart I'd probably say "yeah she seems intelligent I guess". But you're right, Johanna HAD been overwhelmed to that point. It'd make more sense from a townie perspective to say "I think Johanna is scum and this would put pressure on her" so yeah I'll admit this looks weird.
    That's okay, I am not trying to build a micro case against Penguin, but a macro one. That's just one thing that strikes me as off.

    Really I feel like day 2 with Saint/Hectic/NKA stuff is much worse for them. I hope you can get to that soon and compare/contrast with Johanna's same reading of events! @Ultimate-Gamer

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    New Shawn hasn't changed much has he...

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