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Thread: Allow players to voluntarily post Word Choice data

  1. ISO #1
    mindmelding with an image of a brick Twice Shrunk's Avatar
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    Allow players to voluntarily post Word Choice data

    After a conversation on Discord, I think this is a good idea.

    I'm not sure how well-known this feature is, given that I discovered it today, so I'll post a link real quick.

    First, I want to discuss the arguments against it, since the warning given seems extremely ominous. The warning itself doesn't really elaborate on why, so I've been left to guess for myself + no one on Discord really made an extremely strong argument worthy of such a warning against it either.

    One argument was that Word Choice data is more objective than simple meta (which, ofc, is the only type of OGI that is allowed) - which could take away the skill element of mafia and instead turns it into a matter of plugging things into Word Choice and seeing what it says about their alignment. I find this to be a pretty bad argument - Word Choice itself doesn't calculate anything about alignments, and the information it provides is Not Very Useful in figuring out alignments the long term as it is very easy to change your statistics and adapt your town and wolf metas to be more alike (at least in terms of "what words should I post more"). I think claiming that it will ruin the game to any considerable extent is just plain wrong. All it does is bring some aspects of meta that are commonly ignored (due to the effort required in compiling this data) "into the light."

    Another argument following that counterpoint is that it'll place more of an importance of solving based on meta. I won't claim it won't, I think it will increase the amount of meta solving done, but I also don't think that's really that much of a bad thing, nor do I think it will change the way people solve to a major extent. All it does is give town another mediocre tool to add to their toolbox.

    The last major argument I saw is that people can use the fact that you can post them to pressure players into posting them when they don't want to and... I don't really buy that. This wouldn't take down the "don't pressure players into giving their Word Count data" rule and that would still be punishable. That being said, there's more nuance to this - you could have scenarios where no one explicitly pressures a player to post it but they feel pressured regardless (say because they are the top wagon) and I agree, that is extremely hard to moderate - so I propose not allowing players to share their data if they are currently playing a game on MU. This is still somewhat hard to moderate, but it's like how moderating cheating can be hard - moderating people who break this are moderating people who are privately explicitly breaking the rules, not people who are taking advantage of a loophole.

    the tl;dr of this whole section being that I don't believe that implementing this change will introduce complications that other aspects of the game/site that we allow don't.
    -----
    Ok, now to talk about why this should be allowed.

    I want to note really quick that this change would make the choice to release this information voluntary - so anyone uncomfortable with the idea of giving players more meta on them doesn't have to do it (in other words, anyone who does this wants people to know this).

    Personally, I'm proposing this because I would love for players to have more meta on me. It makes it easier for me to be caught based on how I play the game - which in turn incentivizes me to make my town and wolf metas closer. You can make the argument that it's an issue on my end that I'm not motivated to improve without a risk to myself, but I don't think that's a fair argument because I feel like that is a significant part of what drives human behavior in the first place - it simply doesn't feel worth it to put in the effort to analyze my Word Choice stats when there's not going to be a tangible benefit.

    I don't really know why else people would want to post their stats besides stuff that essentially boils down to trust-telling, which is banned.

    ...yeah.
    Quote Originally Posted by Twice Shrunk (#2684)
    as noted by dvc getting modkilled was optimal play at some point and I am just ahead of my times

  2. ISO #2
    GOAT Tier TripleHaven's Avatar
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    there's just not enough of an upside to allowing this imo

    and making the game even more reliant on meta than it already is is discouraging for new players
    Quote Originally Posted by TripleHaven (#284)
    HEY $%#!S
    Since some people obviously don't know this, even though it should be BASIC COMMON SENSE, I guess i have to point it out. if you are PR, and are about to be misyeeted, YOU NEED TO CLAIM. You need to claim with at least 45 seconds, preferably 1 minute left so that people have time to refresh and unvote you. If you claim at 30 seconds, if you claim at 15 seconds, if you don't claim at all, YOU WILL BE MISYEETED. PR staying alive is extremely important for town. There was a post on the general mafia forum about win rates when PR is yeeted D1 in turbos and its 1/14 or some $%#!.

    I'm not going to call this gamethrowing, because some new players might not understand how important PR is to a setup, and others come from sites where you can't claim as PR. But please, for the love of god, claim if you're being killed. Thank you.

    Copypasta over.
    Quote Originally Posted by King Bowser (#5246)
    Just picture King Bowser wearing baggy cargo pants, and trying to shove an enormous fluffy and supremely enraged kitty into his pockets all game, and all that happens is the cat keeps biting him and clawing him and tearing up his scaly flesh, while hissing and screeching with rage the whole time.

    Yet King Bowser is just as stubborn and insists the kitty goes in his pocket, despite numerous failed attempts.

    In the end, kitty was never pocketed. Did not survive the process, but left Bowser bloody and shredded and looking quite the fool.

    Then everyone else in town is like, dude, Bowser, what happened to your faaaaaace. And your cat.

    I uh... cut myself shaving. I'm still totally townie, honest.

    That is the legend of Goat Cat.

  3. ISO #3
    mindmelding with an image of a brick Twice Shrunk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TripleHaven (#2)
    there's just not enough of an upside to allowing this imo

    and making the game even more reliant on meta than it already is is discouraging for new players
    I think the upside is overall decreasing the gap between players’ meta, instead of making the more reliant on meta as only the players who want their metagame to improve and are willing to put in the effort will reveal this info.

    In the short term, maybe, but I think at worst, in the long term, nothing much will change. At best, we end up having more skilled players overall in making their metas closer resulting in less reliance on meta because it will be a less powerful tool.
    Last edited by Twice Shrunk; November 21st, 2022 at 03:26 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Twice Shrunk (#2684)
    as noted by dvc getting modkilled was optimal play at some point and I am just ahead of my times

  4. ISO #4
    Season 8 Champze katze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arapocalypse (#2181)
    ...meow?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lissa (#10803)
    REVEAL (PART SEVEN)

    In first place and winning the Mafia Championship with 99 points is...







    @katze (Throne of Lies)!
    Quote Originally Posted by Marshal (#174)
    tl;dr: kat called my $%#! small, I townread it
    Quote Originally Posted by katze (#8516)
    Quote Originally Posted by Justplayingitcool (#8515)
    The reality is that when you've soft defended half the wolf team, and tried to kill who I perceive as villagers, it's impossible for me to ever take that slot out of the PoE, or even trust them. I feel like they tried to open the PoE by bringing C4 back into the spotlight.
    hey put respect on my name

    i also hard defended the other half of the wolfteam
    Quote Originally Posted by Hally (#39)
    what if kat is vt

    would she throw like this
    Quote Originally Posted by neopest (#1)
    Today we celebrate the life, career, piety, and knowledge of Katze. The one who exposed the world to this truth and gave meaning to life.

    Quote Originally Posted by katze (#3330)
    Quote Originally Posted by Illwei (#3328)
    you're gonna kill mac I'm just sitting on katze for fun
    😳
    Quote Originally Posted by Illwei (#3353)
    Quote Originally Posted by katze (#3348)
    Quote Originally Posted by Illwei (#3335)
    Quote Originally Posted by Illwei (#3331)
    nah katze no flushed emoji
    you're being too rude at this eod for me to banter with you anymore
    sorry

    i just think ur a wolf

    you can go back to sitting on me
    i'll $%#!in sit on ur mouth $%#!
    Quote Originally Posted by Illwei (#3354)
    not like that not like that not like that

    Quote Originally Posted by Transcend (#217)
    Quote Originally Posted by Transcend (#160)
    Quote Originally Posted by katze (#42)
    ##Vote Sleep

    im tired and feel like staying in bed

    also we don’t have enough info to execute someone d1 or something
    This immediately pings me a bit. Partially because i know it's not smart but also seems like he doesn't wanna step on toes so early.
    Yo katze

    I feel like this might have been a joke post

    But also i feel like there's some truth behind every joke and I just got pinged by this

    So can you tell me the rationale behind this post?
    Quote Originally Posted by Marluxion (#714)
    Katze is uwu
    Quote Originally Posted by illario (#2944)
    Pretty sure Katze is just an innocent memer gamer girl who likes to joke around and play seriously as well and genuinely gets upset when her jokes are taken seriously and her seriousness is taken as jokes

    And if she’s maf then she’s just a borderline sociopath memer girl whose jokes are just lies and her seriousness are just lies and everything about her is a lie and if she flips maf this game and I see her say anything remotely scummy in a future game I’m just gonna death tunnel her to the ends of the earth regardless of how genuine her posts may feel
    Quote Originally Posted by AYAYA (#6543)
    signing my posts makes me feel subhuman

    - chloe
    Quote Originally Posted by Thunal33 (#238)
    you're not a reliable source of redcheck yet
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    i looked away for five minutes and katze faked a red?
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    Why are you doing this?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ampharos (#11644)
    katze how the hell do you have 225 posts in a dead end phase
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    ok katze is trolling me lmao

    i feel your pain chloe.
    Quote Originally Posted by neopest (#6889)
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    We're dead sure on Lucy being mafia then?
    like 95% the 5% is katze being really awful at setup design
    Quote Originally Posted by neopest (#6928)
    oh jesus christ katze, i hate u
    Quote Originally Posted by SilverKeith (#6932)
    LMAOOOOO

    Ok this is kinda bastard fr

  5. ISO #5
    Most Likely Asleep Secondhand Revenant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by katze (#4)
    no
    Good word choice
    Come wayward souls,
    Who wander through the darkness,
    There is a light for the lost and the meek.

    Quote Originally Posted by LordQuas
    You don't have to do anything except die
    Quote Originally Posted by Visorslash
    Look upon my works ye low hanging fruit and despair!
    Quote Originally Posted by Visorslash
    I'm not accusing you of meta

    I'm accusing you of a wolfiest

    The most heinous of crimes

  6. ISO #6
    Most Likely Asleep Secondhand Revenant's Avatar
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    By allowing it you make it possible to badger people for it. Never happening thankfully
    Come wayward souls,
    Who wander through the darkness,
    There is a light for the lost and the meek.

    Quote Originally Posted by LordQuas
    You don't have to do anything except die
    Quote Originally Posted by Visorslash
    Look upon my works ye low hanging fruit and despair!
    Quote Originally Posted by Visorslash
    I'm not accusing you of meta

    I'm accusing you of a wolfiest

    The most heinous of crimes

  7. ISO #7
    mindmelding with an image of a brick Twice Shrunk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Secondhand Revenant (#6)
    By allowing it you make it possible to badger people for it. Never happening thankfully
    That would be explicitly against the rules, just like it is now?
    Quote Originally Posted by Twice Shrunk (#2684)
    as noted by dvc getting modkilled was optimal play at some point and I am just ahead of my times

  8. ISO #8
    Too long and too gay lute's Avatar
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    just play mafia
    The only verdict is vengeance; a vendetta, held as a votive not in vain, for the value and veracity of such shall one day vindicate the vigilant and the virtuous.
    ♫ The truth is hard to sort out ♫
    ♫ Among the secrets and the lies ♫
    ♫ Familiar faces watch you ♫
    ♫ But with a perfect stranger's eyes ♫

  9. ISO #9
    mindmelding with an image of a brick Twice Shrunk's Avatar
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    Just for my sanity, could someone please point out what I seem to be so obviously missing?

    (or give a serious answer that I haven’t already countered in general that works too)
    Quote Originally Posted by Twice Shrunk (#2684)
    as noted by dvc getting modkilled was optimal play at some point and I am just ahead of my times

  10. ISO #10
    alien shapeshifter Hally's Avatar Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by lute (#8)
    just play mafia
    i refuse
    Quote Originally Posted by litten
    hally you have a Wowee addicfion
    Quote Originally Posted by quas
    Name the wowee dog hally
    Quote Originally Posted by Marshal (#15)
    hi im hally
    Quote Originally Posted by Marshal (#26)
    im a big nerd something something gravity falls
    Quote Originally Posted by staypositivefriend (#19)
    tfw i cant mindmeld with hally this game
    Quote Originally Posted by ran
    How To Tell If Your Hally Is An Alien Shapeshifter:
    - Apply moderate but steady pressure d1 and observe their reaction.
    - If your Hally is genuine, you will notice a distinct morphing of their facial features into an "anime" or "chibi" style resembling the kaomoji (〃>_<;〃), their arms will turn into fingerless drumsticks and begin rapidly vibrating up and down, and they will emit various phrases such as "no bulli!" and "give me space!" and "but why!"
    - On the other hand, if your Hally remains in a photorealistic human form and responds calmly with phrases like "That's unfortunate, but I hope we can work together!" and changes the subject, you have an alien shapeshifter on your hands and should quickly excuse yourself and break the glass on the nearest eod flamethrower.
    Quote Originally Posted by lute (#50)
    182. Bellossom



    Bellossom, Bubbles, and @Hally. doing a little flower dance. travel agent who doesn't work on commission. knows she's pretty but loves being reminded. tries to maintain a vegetable garden but isn't very good at it.

    A-Tier.
    Quote Originally Posted by Syn (#142)
    Quote Originally Posted by ladd (#4605)
    Gay=hally
    Quote Originally Posted by jump
    dear professor

    i need an extension on this assignment if thats ok thank you so much or i can send you what i have already idk

    kind regards
    hally
    Quote Originally Posted by Visorslash (#902)
    when i see hally in the playerlist of a non post cap game

    Quote Originally Posted by Sunbae (#442)
    I'm going to apologize for this one in advance but I hope you'll all humor me for a little while. This is a champs level game after all and I can't help but try and post in a way to properly honor the occasion. Who knows when I'll be back in this situation again.

    I don't think it's a secret for most of you that my track record in reading Hally has been rather … well … awful thus far in our games. I did have one specific game where I recognized Hally was a villager and confidently (and happily!) let the world know. They flipped wolf. After our Syndicate game together and then Anni (both of which saw me find Hally's eod wolfy and press there) I wanted to make a concentrated effort to finally read that slot correctly.

    I spent some time today combing through recent-ish games this year of Hally's. The wolf game on the Org website, the Vig game over on the Syndicate one, and all sorts of mashes/smaller games through MU as well. Rocks fall, Anni, Homestuck, CoV, etc. You get the picture. All in all there were 16 different games I pulled isos from. I then went and ran through the isos extracting all the day one posts from the first half of the day, labeled them as W or V, and ran them through a bit of a homemade database that would do a few different things for me. One of the things was to make a word cloud which would count the number of times each word was used in these isos and make the word larger the more frequently it was used. For example:





    Anyways, I separated the wolf isos from the villa isos and then removed things like articles (a, the, in, an, etc) as well as player names as those aren't really super relevant to our investigation and cross referenced them to see if anything word usage stood out as alignment indicative in the top 10 most common words. While there were small word choices favored it didn't seem super significant. What WAS significant were two other things:

    One: While specific word choices weren't very telling I did notice a definitely trend of elegance in the wolf isos. The words may change but the idea remained the same. In wolf ISOs Hally had a habit of using larger, more elegant words whereas in the villa ISOs Hally just talked more casually. I'll call these Posts Exceedingly Elegant as we continue.

    Two: Villager isos were much more full of observational posts rather than inquisitive ones. The wolf iso was full of open ended questions requesting elaboration. Not just directly to a specific player but also towards the thread at large asking if it saw what Hally was seeing. Meanwhile the villager iso was full of more pointed statement. It was telling the thread what Hally was seeing and making sure everyone understood. The village iso had a higher frequency – by a significant margin – of Posts Of Observation.


    Again, I really want to get this right so I didn't stop there. Science isn't science until you write it down after all. I went ahead and charted the percentage of posts as a villager and as a wolf for both posts containing an elegant word and posts making observations. It's a bit crude but here's the quick jot down I made to visualize it:





    So I wanted to see how this one was shaping up. Remember, these were all taken from the first half of day one isos which we've made it past here. I went ahead and ran through Hally's iso from this game, plotted the elegance and observational percentages on the chart, and ran the following equation to try and determine the exact percentage chance Hally has at being a wolf:

    (Posts Exceedingly Elegant as a wolf)(Posts Exceedingly Elegant here) + (Posts of Observation as a villager)(Posts of Observation here) = the mathematical chance of Hally being a villager here (do 1-this for wolf obv).

    Which looks something like this:


    (Posts Exceedingly Elegant as a wolf)(Posts Exceedingly Elegant here) + (Posts of Observation as a villager)(Posts of Observation here)

    Or written differently

    PEEPEE POOPOO

  11. ISO #11
    Most Likely Asleep Secondhand Revenant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Twice Shrunk (#7)
    Quote Originally Posted by Secondhand Revenant (#6)
    By allowing it you make it possible to badger people for it. Never happening thankfully
    That would be explicitly against the rules, just like it is now?
    People will be pressured by people suspecting the people who won't reveal whether it is done explicitly or not
    Come wayward souls,
    Who wander through the darkness,
    There is a light for the lost and the meek.

    Quote Originally Posted by LordQuas
    You don't have to do anything except die
    Quote Originally Posted by Visorslash
    Look upon my works ye low hanging fruit and despair!
    Quote Originally Posted by Visorslash
    I'm not accusing you of meta

    I'm accusing you of a wolfiest

    The most heinous of crimes

  12. ISO #12
    mindmelding with an image of a brick Twice Shrunk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Secondhand Revenant (#11)
    Quote Originally Posted by Twice Shrunk (#7)
    Quote Originally Posted by Secondhand Revenant (#6)
    By allowing it you make it possible to badger people for it. Never happening thankfully
    That would be explicitly against the rules, just like it is now?
    People will be pressured by people suspecting the people who won't reveal whether it is done explicitly or not
    Did you even read my post?

    I quite explicitly brought up this concern and proposed that players not be allowed to share them when they are in a game.
    Quote Originally Posted by Twice Shrunk (#2684)
    as noted by dvc getting modkilled was optimal play at some point and I am just ahead of my times

  13. ISO #13
    alien shapeshifter Hally's Avatar Moderator
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    Personally, I'm proposing this because I would love for players to have more meta on me. It makes it easier for me to be caught based on how I play the game - which in turn incentivizes me to make my town and wolf metas closer.
    i don’t understand why it’s important for you to erase a meta gap in your word choice when nobody except you cares about your word choice enough to use it to read you

    like, why would you post your data to motivate yourself to close your meta gap when the only reason it would be necessary to close it is if you post the data? if you don’t post the data it doesn’t matter in the first place

    You can make the argument that it's an issue on my end that I'm not motivated to improve without a risk to myself, but I don't think that's a fair argument because I feel like that is a significant part of what drives human behavior in the first place - it simply doesn't feel worth it to put in the effort to analyze my Word Choice stats when there's not going to be a tangible benefit.
    if you think people are currently doing meta analyses of your word choice to read you then that should be enough motivation for you to close your word choice gap so you don’t get read easily

    the reason you don’t feel like it’s worth doing right now is because nobody is doing that, so it’s currently a non-issue that you’re worrying about for no reason


    tl;dr - no
    Last edited by Hally; November 22nd, 2022 at 01:23 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by litten
    hally you have a Wowee addicfion
    Quote Originally Posted by quas
    Name the wowee dog hally
    Quote Originally Posted by Marshal (#15)
    hi im hally
    Quote Originally Posted by Marshal (#26)
    im a big nerd something something gravity falls
    Quote Originally Posted by staypositivefriend (#19)
    tfw i cant mindmeld with hally this game
    Quote Originally Posted by ran
    How To Tell If Your Hally Is An Alien Shapeshifter:
    - Apply moderate but steady pressure d1 and observe their reaction.
    - If your Hally is genuine, you will notice a distinct morphing of their facial features into an "anime" or "chibi" style resembling the kaomoji (〃>_<;〃), their arms will turn into fingerless drumsticks and begin rapidly vibrating up and down, and they will emit various phrases such as "no bulli!" and "give me space!" and "but why!"
    - On the other hand, if your Hally remains in a photorealistic human form and responds calmly with phrases like "That's unfortunate, but I hope we can work together!" and changes the subject, you have an alien shapeshifter on your hands and should quickly excuse yourself and break the glass on the nearest eod flamethrower.
    Quote Originally Posted by lute (#50)
    182. Bellossom



    Bellossom, Bubbles, and @Hally. doing a little flower dance. travel agent who doesn't work on commission. knows she's pretty but loves being reminded. tries to maintain a vegetable garden but isn't very good at it.

    A-Tier.
    Quote Originally Posted by Syn (#142)
    Quote Originally Posted by ladd (#4605)
    Gay=hally
    Quote Originally Posted by jump
    dear professor

    i need an extension on this assignment if thats ok thank you so much or i can send you what i have already idk

    kind regards
    hally
    Quote Originally Posted by Visorslash (#902)
    when i see hally in the playerlist of a non post cap game

    Quote Originally Posted by Sunbae (#442)
    I'm going to apologize for this one in advance but I hope you'll all humor me for a little while. This is a champs level game after all and I can't help but try and post in a way to properly honor the occasion. Who knows when I'll be back in this situation again.

    I don't think it's a secret for most of you that my track record in reading Hally has been rather … well … awful thus far in our games. I did have one specific game where I recognized Hally was a villager and confidently (and happily!) let the world know. They flipped wolf. After our Syndicate game together and then Anni (both of which saw me find Hally's eod wolfy and press there) I wanted to make a concentrated effort to finally read that slot correctly.

    I spent some time today combing through recent-ish games this year of Hally's. The wolf game on the Org website, the Vig game over on the Syndicate one, and all sorts of mashes/smaller games through MU as well. Rocks fall, Anni, Homestuck, CoV, etc. You get the picture. All in all there were 16 different games I pulled isos from. I then went and ran through the isos extracting all the day one posts from the first half of the day, labeled them as W or V, and ran them through a bit of a homemade database that would do a few different things for me. One of the things was to make a word cloud which would count the number of times each word was used in these isos and make the word larger the more frequently it was used. For example:





    Anyways, I separated the wolf isos from the villa isos and then removed things like articles (a, the, in, an, etc) as well as player names as those aren't really super relevant to our investigation and cross referenced them to see if anything word usage stood out as alignment indicative in the top 10 most common words. While there were small word choices favored it didn't seem super significant. What WAS significant were two other things:

    One: While specific word choices weren't very telling I did notice a definitely trend of elegance in the wolf isos. The words may change but the idea remained the same. In wolf ISOs Hally had a habit of using larger, more elegant words whereas in the villa ISOs Hally just talked more casually. I'll call these Posts Exceedingly Elegant as we continue.

    Two: Villager isos were much more full of observational posts rather than inquisitive ones. The wolf iso was full of open ended questions requesting elaboration. Not just directly to a specific player but also towards the thread at large asking if it saw what Hally was seeing. Meanwhile the villager iso was full of more pointed statement. It was telling the thread what Hally was seeing and making sure everyone understood. The village iso had a higher frequency – by a significant margin – of Posts Of Observation.


    Again, I really want to get this right so I didn't stop there. Science isn't science until you write it down after all. I went ahead and charted the percentage of posts as a villager and as a wolf for both posts containing an elegant word and posts making observations. It's a bit crude but here's the quick jot down I made to visualize it:





    So I wanted to see how this one was shaping up. Remember, these were all taken from the first half of day one isos which we've made it past here. I went ahead and ran through Hally's iso from this game, plotted the elegance and observational percentages on the chart, and ran the following equation to try and determine the exact percentage chance Hally has at being a wolf:

    (Posts Exceedingly Elegant as a wolf)(Posts Exceedingly Elegant here) + (Posts of Observation as a villager)(Posts of Observation here) = the mathematical chance of Hally being a villager here (do 1-this for wolf obv).

    Which looks something like this:


    (Posts Exceedingly Elegant as a wolf)(Posts Exceedingly Elegant here) + (Posts of Observation as a villager)(Posts of Observation here)

    Or written differently

    PEEPEE POOPOO

  14. ISO #14
    Loansharking blot test Newcomb's Avatar Head Moderator
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    tfw I find out "bronana" frequency is AI

  15. ISO #15
    Galaxy Brain Shad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Newcomb (#14)
    tfw I find out "bronana" frequency is AI
    Cromulent

  16. ISO #16
    mindmelding with an image of a brick Twice Shrunk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hally (#13)
    Personally, I'm proposing this because I would love for players to have more meta on me. It makes it easier for me to be caught based on how I play the game - which in turn incentivizes me to make my town and wolf metas closer.
    i don’t understand why it’s important for you to erase a meta gap in your word choice when nobody except you cares about your word choice enough to use it to read you

    like, why would you post your data to motivate yourself to close your meta gap when the only reason it would be necessary to close it is if you post the data? if you don’t post the data it doesn’t matter in the first place

    You can make the argument that it's an issue on my end that I'm not motivated to improve without a risk to myself, but I don't think that's a fair argument because I feel like that is a significant part of what drives human behavior in the first place - it simply doesn't feel worth it to put in the effort to analyze my Word Choice stats when there's not going to be a tangible benefit.
    if you think people are currently doing meta analyses of your word choice to read you then that should be enough motivation for you to close your word choice gap so you don’t get read easily

    the reason you don’t feel like it’s worth doing right now is because nobody is doing that, so it’s currently a non-issue that you’re worrying about for no reason


    tl;dr - no
    I mean, I think it's a lot more than that and you're boiling it down to something that Isn't True.

    I would like to get better at being a wolf. This is independent from how well people can currently read me rn. It does not matter if I am the best wolf here (hypothetical), or if no one can catch me - if it is possible get better at being a wolf, then I'm not finished.

    I probably should have articulated this better in my original post (in my defense, I wrote it in one sitting, so I was bound to miss something), lemme add/clarify some things.

    When I said "no motivation without a tangible benefit," that wasn't exactly true and trying to convey something more nuanced than it explicitly says - though I do think there is more motivation with a tangible benefit.

    It's moreso that it's not "worth the effort" (although there might still be motivation) in that trying to improve at something in which you cannot see tangible benefits is just straight up hard. It's because you don't have a benchmark to compare yourself to besides your Word Choice data, and while that can be helpful, it's still raw stats and will miss a lot of the things that would be "covered" in a real game. Like, you can fool the word counter by trying to incorporate a certain word into every post you make (kind of extreme, but it's supposed to make a point), and that will fool Word Choice, but it won't fool a player who might catch onto that. How do you tell if you're incorporating words naturally into your post besides asking yourself, a biased person (which is why, ofc, you should always get other people to review your work before you publish/submit/etc it)?

    So, it's not that my entire motivation comes from the active risk element, but it'll give me more motivation to do something that is more worth investing my time in and I will improve much more and faster with it there.

    And, even if this wasn't so, why not do it?

    I haven't seen a single Actually Good argument and just a bunch of "duh, why would we" expressions that seem more of resistance to change than anything actually tangible.
    Quote Originally Posted by Twice Shrunk (#2684)
    as noted by dvc getting modkilled was optimal play at some point and I am just ahead of my times

  17. ISO #17
    Wants It More annulus's Avatar
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    oppose because it gives undue (non-zero) credibility to this data

  18. ISO #18
    mindmelding with an image of a brick Twice Shrunk's Avatar
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    I think it’s useful, to an extent?

    Not to mention that banning posting it gives more credibility if anything.
    Quote Originally Posted by Twice Shrunk (#2684)
    as noted by dvc getting modkilled was optimal play at some point and I am just ahead of my times

  19. ISO #19
    Bandwagoner Rajidae's Avatar
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    If you're so keen on improving, surely you'll find other ways that don't include the whole site catering to you, no?

    This sounds like a skill issue

  20. ISO #20
    Know the dark side Askthepizzaguy's Avatar
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    I tell you what.

    Use this data on my past games as mafia and town. I can collect 20 of each type.

    You show me what the data says.

    I'll tell you if I think it is relevant after that point, and may listen to you if you tell me what the metadata says about a specific player in some future game, without even seeing the data.

    You can just tell me one keyword that stands out, and I can go tell by ctrl+f-ing the isos of them as scum and as town.

    It's similar to how I search for keywords related to actual scumtells, but here, your brain is entirely disconnected and you're using a tool instead of expending effort and experience and energy to get to a more rational conclusion based on predictive qualities rather than mere correlation.

    But if I have absolutely nothing better, it may tilt the needle for me 0.1 percent in your favor. Call it a tiebreaker.

    Otherwise, even I am fairly skepticalface.

    I may be the closest to a person on the site with interest in this sort of hunting, and my reaction is still very skepticalface.

    I need to see results, and even then, I still think you're finding correlation rather than causation.

    In any two given piles of games, unless I say each word identically often, I will say certain words more often as scum by random chance.

    That's very correlation, not causation.

    I need some very strong correlation over a large number of games before I can call it closer to predictive.

  21. ISO #21
    Know the dark side Askthepizzaguy's Avatar
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    I think there are better processes and even if not, more persuasive ones.

  22. ISO #22
    ༼ つ ;-; ༽つ give smith another day mhsmith0's Avatar Game Manager
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    Apparently if I say the word “crunkus” I’m probably mafia. Might or might not have anything to do with me being mafia in every MU game I played with him.
    Life is simply unfair... don't you think?
    http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=mhsmith0

    BATMAN: Only jugg was the only one we didn’t scum read at least not me

  23. ISO #23
    five people have died Apoc's Avatar Game Manager
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    Attempting to make your green chart match your red chart seems somewhat arbitrary.

    Making these charts overlap will neither:
    1. Close an apparent meta gap
    2. Make you a better player


    Wolfing requires a different approach to villaging. So I would argue that the meta-data on your village and wolf game posts should be different. If it's not, you are doing it wrong.




    If a village is destroying itself...then why would I want to post more words that might derail them from that path?

    Just to make my wolf postcount match by village postcount? No thank you.

    I will instead sit quietly and laugh as they implode. Or maybe I'm a lazy villager




    P.S. My charts overlap perfectly so it's all moot
    Last edited by Apoc; November 23rd, 2022 at 08:26 PM.

  24. ISO #24
    Know the dark side Askthepizzaguy's Avatar
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    That guy honored by the community far more times than MU has years in existence may be on to something about how to play mafia well.

    Unless this is the way of the future.

    Checkmate, Apoc.

    From now on, if I post the word "the" too many times, I'm scum. You just have to yeet me.

    I am joking, and the joke is on me, not you Twice. I respect the idea behind it and I think aspects of it may even be indicative.

    I just think you will convince no one else through this type of analysis.

    I don't think it should be banned, I think the community should look at it and go, okay. Good luck with that. Base your votes around it, and show me dead wolves.

    If you can do that then it doesn't matter what people think. Just probably come up with reasons others also follow, use it like a metal detector.

    Once you think you found something, use traditional analysis and maybe others will follow it.

  25. ISO #25
    GOAT Tier Sett's Avatar
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    TIL that when I say probably, I’m probably town, & when I say really, I really might just be mafia.

    EDIT: For legal purposes I’ve been told to say this is a joke.
    Last edited by Sett; November 24th, 2022 at 03:46 AM.
    Do not open:


    True story:
    Quote Originally Posted by Sett (#15734)
    Quote Originally Posted by theknightsofneeee (#15677)
    Quote Originally Posted by Phighter (#15664)
    Quote Originally Posted by theknightsofneeee (#15649)
    phighter make a case for me being a wolf other than I think you're a wolf

    GO
    I don't need to, you shooting me after everything I've claimed is more than enough. I have a feeling Sheep may be an important mafia PR, because there is no reason a player with your reputation and skill level rushes something self-resolving without ulterior motives.
    yeah guys

    this is a villager right here /s

    he's called me a villager all game and he's only OMGUS'ing me after i've committed to pushing him for doing obviously wolfy things

    can't even fake a case as to why i'm a wolf cause there literally isn't one lmao
    Can you stop measuring your $%#!ing $%#!s for 2 minutes and realize you're probably both town?


  26. ISO #26
    Calculated. bopolis's Avatar
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    lol apoc
    This is not a joke
    Cow - Today at 1:02 AM
    This EoD has given me a deep and profound understanding regarding what it might be liking playing with me when i do stupid $%#! as villager.

  27. ISO #27
    GOAT Tier Guillotina's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Secondhand Revenant (#11)
    Quote Originally Posted by Twice Shrunk (#7)
    Quote Originally Posted by Secondhand Revenant (#6)
    By allowing it you make it possible to badger people for it. Never happening thankfully
    That would be explicitly against the rules, just like it is now?
    People will be pressured by people suspecting the people who won't reveal whether it is done explicitly or not
    Agreed.

    No and will not play any games where this is offered “voluntarily”.

  28. ISO #28
    mindmelding with an image of a brick Twice Shrunk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guillotina (#27)
    Quote Originally Posted by Secondhand Revenant (#11)
    Quote Originally Posted by Twice Shrunk (#7)
    Quote Originally Posted by Secondhand Revenant (#6)
    By allowing it you make it possible to badger people for it. Never happening thankfully
    That would be explicitly against the rules, just like it is now?
    People will be pressured by people suspecting the people who won't reveal whether it is done explicitly or not
    Agreed.

    No and will not play any games where this is offered “voluntarily”.
    I already had addressed this in the OP.
    Quote Originally Posted by Twice Shrunk (#2684)
    as noted by dvc getting modkilled was optimal play at some point and I am just ahead of my times

  29. ISO #29
    mindmelding with an image of a brick Twice Shrunk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rajidae (#19)
    If you're so keen on improving, surely you'll find other ways that don't include the whole site catering to you, no?

    This sounds like a skill issue
    I think this is a pretty awful misrepresentation of what I am saying - it's like saying allowing homosexual marriage shouldn't be allowed since it has the whole country cater to them.

    a. It's voluntary.
    b. Doesn't really have downsides that are significantly different/worse than the ones we have by allowing specchats, spoilers in said specchats, etc.

    Frankly, I think saying that it involves the whole site catering to me is just... wrong, and I believe I clearly laid out the costs and benefits of this in general.
    Quote Originally Posted by Twice Shrunk (#2684)
    as noted by dvc getting modkilled was optimal play at some point and I am just ahead of my times

  30. ISO #30
    Know the dark side Askthepizzaguy's Avatar
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    Is this something you can do on your own and come to your own conclusions without pasting the data to show people?

    Data they wouldn't read anyway?

    And if so, can't you already just make your reads this way and if it works and people are like wow it works, then they can learn your mysterious ways, similar to my guide on being a townie and the methods of solving therein.

  31. ISO #31
    Know the dark side Askthepizzaguy's Avatar
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    That said I am very libertarian (old school, left libertarian) in that I don't like a rule against a solving method that could be done by hand.

    Especially if it carries little weight with the general audience so in principle I completely side with your position.

  32. ISO #32
    mindmelding with an image of a brick Twice Shrunk's Avatar
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    Ok, now that I’ve gotten those posts out of the way, I’ve taken the past few days to reflect on this, and I have... thoughts.

    First, I think that I previously overestimated the utility that doing this would provide. I think Apoc presents a somewhat valid point in that you might not necessarily want your town and wolf games to have the same metadata, as wolfing naturally takes a different approach and trying to get your word choice to match up is restrictive - but at the same time I think that their assumption that having near identical stats inherently means you will have the same approach to both alignments is wrong. I think this is just an extension of an argument against meta in general - it’s arguably more restrictive to have to attempt to emulate your town playstyle rather than just which words you use. Words are just a tool, what you do with them is up to you while playstyle is something a lot more inherent to you and allowing players to use meta as we know it seems a lot worse if we go along these lines. You can argue that this is a necessary sacrifice in order to maintain the community’s social aspect (as the only real solution to this is to make all games anon) and that we shouldn’t be allowing more of this because there’s no “necessary sacrifice” involved, but I want to note that whether you want to out this data is completely voluntary (and I’d appreciate if I didn’t have to tell another person to read the OP where I address some of the problems that may arise from this).

    Now, all I’ve done so far is present all the problems I feel like exist in Apoc’s argument, but I do think it has a semblance of truth to it. Specifically, I think it’s made me realize that this isn’t really all that useful and only makes one a better wolf player by somewhat arbitrary standards - but I feel like it does offer something (I think it can be argued that if you accomplish the same things as wolf when your word choice is close enough to town word choice as opposed to when it is not, you are a better wolf player), like the cherry on top of your sundae.

    (All of this being said, I will probably drop this for now as, like I said, I’ve probably overestimated the value this brings, though I believe no solid counter argument has been presented and there’s not a great reason for not allowing this.)
    Quote Originally Posted by Twice Shrunk (#2684)
    as noted by dvc getting modkilled was optimal play at some point and I am just ahead of my times

  33. ISO #33
    mindmelding with an image of a brick Twice Shrunk's Avatar
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    I also want to talk about what pizza said on correlation/causation and random chance - which I totally agree with.

    I've noticed this firsthand as I had to go through my database and delete a bunch of usernames as they were exclusively used many many times as town and obviously they aren't actually alignment indicative.

    The database is just statistics (on a small tangent here, I also agree with their point that this sort of thing can technically be done by hand and we're not really restricting the practice as so much as restricting the efficient use of the practice which feels kind of iffy in itself but) and obviously it is just showing correlation - one needs to parse through it themselves and be able to recognize when something is just chance and when it actually means something. And, yeah, it does require a lot of data before you can start identifying causes, but it's still useful if you can put in the time to look at it.

    And, anyways, I think the weaker the tool actually is, the weaker the argument for banning it gets.
    Quote Originally Posted by Twice Shrunk (#2684)
    as noted by dvc getting modkilled was optimal play at some point and I am just ahead of my times

  34. ISO #34
    mindmelding with an image of a brick Twice Shrunk's Avatar
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    I think an appropriate tl;dr is that I think it's unfair for people to hold the dichotomy of "this isn't going to have that many benefits" and "it should stay banned" as isn't the whole point behind banning it because it's too strong?

    Pretty much, I think that it has some mild benefits and even milder drawbacks; I don't really see any reason it should be banned.

    (And again, it's even $%#!ing voluntary.)
    Quote Originally Posted by Twice Shrunk (#2684)
    as noted by dvc getting modkilled was optimal play at some point and I am just ahead of my times

  35. ISO #35
    mindmelding with an image of a brick Twice Shrunk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy (#30)
    Is this something you can do on your own and come to your own conclusions without pasting the data to show people?

    Data they wouldn't read anyway?

    And if so, can't you already just make your reads this way and if it works and people are like wow it works, then they can learn your mysterious ways, similar to my guide on being a townie and the methods of solving therein.
    I think this is true, but I think that the added pressure of people knowing what to look for will

    a. make you improve faster
    b. help you know when you've truly fixed everything

    Kind of like how playing in anon games isn't really all that great for making yourself less polarized.
    Quote Originally Posted by Twice Shrunk (#2684)
    as noted by dvc getting modkilled was optimal play at some point and I am just ahead of my times

  36. ISO #36
    spec chat hero iaafr's Avatar
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    honestly the main reason i dont want to see this allowed is that i have no desire, nay, negative desire, to ever see these sorts of stats cited in a game or used as gameplay ever


    just make reads on posts and behavior in the context of the game ppl pls

  37. ISO #37
    Know the dark side Askthepizzaguy's Avatar
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    Every time someone posts an argument about this, I find it very valid.

    The only thing I don't actually like is a rule against it

    But like

    Since its just Twice, and if he keeps it off of the pages of the game, let him do.

    Kinda hard to police anyway.

  38. ISO #38
    τη καλλίστη Makaze's Avatar Administrator
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    Quote Originally Posted by Twice Shrunk (#34)
    I think an appropriate tl;dr is that I think it's unfair for people to hold the dichotomy of "this isn't going to have that many benefits" and "it should stay banned" as isn't the whole point behind banning it because it's too strong?

    Pretty much, I think that it has some mild benefits and even milder drawbacks; I don't really see any reason it should be banned.

    (And again, it's even $%#!ing voluntary.)
    The point behind banning it is that it can seem strong and be argued to be strong.

    At the end of the day, we don't want this kind of "evidence" to be a factor in games. We made this tool to help a player improve their own game. It is not meant to help others play against them.
    I hold you in the highest regard, my friends.


    [12:09 pm] Cory Curren: remember that we are marking down all of your reads to hold for our personal amusement
    [12:09 pm] Cory Curren: anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of lol
    Quote Originally Posted by Ampharos (#4807)
    i'm about to make makaze's pronouns was/were

  39. ISO #39
    Know the dark side Askthepizzaguy's Avatar
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    I wasn't even aware it was a tool built into the website until this thread existed.

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