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Thread: Offseason Champs Setup Discussion

  1. ISO #251
    Wants It More Variance's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by katze (#249)
    imma be real im too tired to think about the actual balance/fun of these setups but given this is the champs thread i... kinda don't think the "additional mechanic" part rly fits here

    0 Correct - An alive member of the Mafia will die on Day 3 (randomly chosen).
    1 Correct - At the start of Day 3, it will be announced that either an alive Mafia member OR a Vanilla Townie (both randomly chosen) is a member of the Mafia.
    both of these are like... i get the balance ur going for here but beyond the potentially complex setup (probably) i think the "a wolf dies at random lmao" thing is pretty bad and "a player is revealed as mafia and it's maybe actually a VT" is... pretty





    in its own setup tho maybe this could be fun? it's certainly an interesting approach (this sounds sarcastic but its only like 25% sarcastic)
    i mean like ara said the punishments kind of need to be extremely bad for mafia when wrong in order to effectively show the mafia they should not be making a guess unless there is a massclaim or town makes it extremely obvious who the PRs are to the point where it might as well be a massclaim

    surface level upon reading it, it looks dumb, but imo it makes sense when you think of it from the perspective that mafia can just... not submit a guess and avoid those bad things happening, and the entire point of the mechanic is to make mass claim look extremely undesirable to the point where town ~never go ahead with it unless they are bad and in which case they can be punished for it suitably by mafia

    re: the punishment when mafia get 1 correct, i think you are misinterpreting it. It gives an announcement that says "X (mafia player) or Y (citizen) is a Mafia member", it doesn't go "X is Mafia" where X is either a mafia player or a citizen (the latter would indeed be very dumb ). could porbably explain it better in setup details

    complexity is definitely an issue with the additional mechanic added yeah, but I think it can 100% be worked around by having the players either be in practice runs and/or ensuring players see practice runs to understand how the setup works before champs starts, as well as showing examples and having an FAQ

  2. ISO #252
    Wants It More Variance's Avatar
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    Idea:

    In the first 2 cycles of the game, the Mafia may earn "points" by submitting posts where Town players are either claiming or obviously hinting at being a certain role (whether it is their true role or not). The host/s will determine if submissions are valid. The Mafia will have 2 attempted submissions per player per day (a maximum of 1 of them can be valid).

    Points are distributed as follows:

    - For each valid post submission where a Town player claims and their true role is Vanilla Town, gain 1 point
    - For each valid post submission where a Town player claims and their true role is a Town Power Role, gain 2 points

    If, by Night 2, the Mafia earn 4 points from Day 1 posts, they will gain a kill which they may use on any day after Night 2.

    If, by Night 2, the Mafia earn 6 points from Day 1 and Day 2 posts, they will gain a kill which they may use on any day after Night 2.
    idk im just throwing stuff out there, i think this could maybe work. or something similar

  3. ISO #253
    Season 8 Champze katze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Variance (#251)
    re: the punishment when mafia get 1 correct, i think you are misinterpreting it. It gives an announcement that says "X (mafia player) or Y (citizen) is a Mafia member", it doesn't go "X is Mafia" where X is either a mafia player or a citizen (the latter would indeed be very dumb ). could porbably explain it better in setup details
    OKAY THAT MAKES SO MUCH MORE SENSE





    i still dont love that but i definitely Get It More

    my impression is still that its probably too complex for champs still but the idea itself isnt horrible, i get the "punish wolves for being very wrong" bit because otherwise it's basically just multiple free PR checks



    im not sure what i'd propose otherwise as a system to prevent massclaim but not be too overbearing tho so maybe ur on the right track and im just not thinking hard enough to see it

  4. ISO #254
    Wants It More Variance's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by katze (#253)
    Quote Originally Posted by Variance (#251)
    re: the punishment when mafia get 1 correct, i think you are misinterpreting it. It gives an announcement that says "X (mafia player) or Y (citizen) is a Mafia member", it doesn't go "X is Mafia" where X is either a mafia player or a citizen (the latter would indeed be very dumb ). could porbably explain it better in setup details
    OKAY THAT MAKES SO MUCH MORE SENSE





    i still dont love that but i definitely Get It More

    my impression is still that its probably too complex for champs still but the idea itself isnt horrible, i get the "punish wolves for being very wrong" bit because otherwise it's basically just multiple free PR checks



    im not sure what i'd propose otherwise as a system to prevent massclaim but not be too overbearing tho so maybe ur on the right track and im just not thinking hard enough to see it
    tbh i htink you're right that it's too complex / overbearing

    kind of leaning towards something similar to the idea i recently posted being the best way to go as it's a bit simpler and doesn't really require dumb looking punishments

  5. ISO #255
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    Up until the end of Night 2, the Mafia may earn points by submitting valid posts where Town players are either claiming or hinting at being a certain role (whether it's their true role or not). The host/s will determine if submissions are valid, i.e. the Town player is definitely claiming or hinting at being a role. The Mafia may make 1 submission per player. A full list of submissions (should the Mafia have any) must be given at the end of Night 2, and points will be awarded at the start of Day 3. The Mafia will not be told how many points they earn - they will only be told whether or not they received any rewards (see below).

    The following points will be given for a valid post submission, dependent on the true role of the Town player who is claiming:
    • Vanilla Town – 1 point
    • Power Role – 2 points

    The Mafia will earn the following rewards upon earning points:
    • If the Mafia gain 4 or more points from Day 1 posts, they will gain a kill which may be used on any day after Night 2.
    • If the Mafia gain 6 or more points from Day 1 and Day 2 posts, they will gain a kill which may be used on any day after Night 2.



    changed a bit, more necessary detail + explained a bit better

    this is btw assuming there are 3 town power roles in the game and it's a 12v3 game (though this mechanic can be amended to better fit games with different numbers)

    thoughts?

  6. ISO #256
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    Up until the end of Night 2, the Mafia may earn points by submitting valid posts where Town players are either claiming or hinting at being a certain role (whether it's their true role or not); submissions are valid if the host determines that the Town player is definitely claiming or hinting at being a certain role. The Mafia may make 1 submission per player throughout the game, and each submission may consist of one or multiple posts from the player. A full list of submissions (should the Mafia have any) must be given at the end of each night, and points will be awarded from this at the start of the following day. The Mafia will not be told how many points they earn - they will only be told whether or not they received any rewards (see below).

    The following points will be given for a valid post submission, dependent on the true role of the Town player who is claiming:
    • Vanilla Town: 2 points
    • Power Role: 5 points

    The Mafia will earn the following rewards upon earning points:
    • If the Mafia earn 8 or more points from Day 1 posts, they will gain a kill which may be used on any day after Night 1.
    • If the Mafia earn 11 or more points from Day 1 and Day 2 posts, they will gain a kill which may be used on any day after Night 2.
    • If the Mafia earn 14 or more points from Day 1, Day 2 and Day 3 posts, they will gain a kill which may be used on any day after Night 3.

    Rewards can stack – For example, if Town decides to massclaim Day 1, allowing the Mafia to earn 14 or more points from Day 1 posts alone, the Mafia will earn every reward available.

    Town players (particularly Town Power Roles) are urged to use claims sparingly, whether they are serious or non-serious claims, to avoid punishment.

    updated again

    meh this is probably too complex again, but i don't think there's anything simple that works effectively. this idea could be simplified maybe?

  7. ISO #257
    Wants It More Variance's Avatar
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    meant to say up until end of night 3 on very first sentence, woops

  8. ISO #258
    GOAT Tier notblackorwhite's Avatar
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    Didn't read everything so apologies if I've said something that's already been discussed. Sunbae's setup with the Firefighter was my favorite of the ones I saw. It's very much in line with what I think Good setups are.

    Setup matrices are fundamentally flawed. They succeed at producing variable setups from a small pool of roles that are sometimes not guessable after the first or second PR flip, and they can be tuned to have a well-understood balance range. However, they have a pretty big problem in that they rarely produce good setups, and that usually delta of balance variance is bigger than you want it to be (which is a particularly bad problem for Champs where you want things more uniform game to game) e.g. both D6 and Matrix 12 can produce some pretty extremely town-sided setups. Good PR setups usually require some thought to ensure there's a proper tension between roles, and a matrix (it's worse for closed setups) can make PR play more naïve or basic until the setup is known because of how much information a player lacks to make decisions.

    In lieu of a matrix, I think just having multiple open setups across the season is fine, and has some nice bonuses like they're less likely to become solved quickly (e.g. bucket claiming didn't happen right away with Gold Rush and it took time for that to become the meta strategy). You can wait until just before rand to post the setup even. If you really want "semi-open" then idk handcraft like 3 setups with role overlap and rand between them. You'll get higher quality setups with nearly all the benefits of matrix with less downside.

    Anyways, in general a Good PR (mostly open or semi-open) setup for something like champs is going to be low power town PRs with more frequent utility than being Named VT, and ideally make wolves make kills that aren't naïve SPKs. Wolf PRs should create tension and potential counterplay with Town PRs. Referring to Sunbae's setup, the Wolf Firefighter both added more potential positive results (really important with a town MD), and made its results require inferences to be useful. Win-win.

    $%#!ing around with setup ideas (roles are non-consec, no self-targeting unless otherwise noted):

    (Semi-)Open 13(15)er #1
    Village
    ---
    Compulsive Fruit Vendor
    Compulsive Motion Detector (Tracker?)
    N2+ 2-shot Vigi
    7-9x VT

    Wolves
    ---
    Fruit Vendor
    2-shot Tracker
    2-shot Roleblocker

    Dueling Fruit Vendors looks dumb, but they muddy the waters for both invests while avoiding it being just a Named VT for the village. The 2-shot Vigi needs to be a 2-shot Vigi because Fruit Vendor + MD/Tracker is pitifully weak role set for the village and it needs the help. The power of the vigi, compulsive modifier on town invest, and the dueling Fruit Vendors are all there to reduce the value of bucket claiming (wolves can more easily find the vigi n1 since it would be the only one to not act).

    This setup is pretty weird, and warped around the vigi. It has some interesting elements, and is gonna be fine balance wise as either a 13er or a 15er, but probably should be a 15er. I really would not reduce the vigi to a 1-shot. Town MD should maybe be a Tracker to make it more potent, but I'm not sure how much it matters and think it might make some of the dynamics less interesting.



    (Semi-)Open 13(15)er #2
    Village
    ---
    1-shot Watcher
    2-shot Doctor
    Tracker
    7-9x VT

    Wolves
    ---
    1-shot Ninja Modifier
    1-shot Strongarm Modifier
    2-shot Tracker (Watcher?)

    There's intended to be tension between the Town Watcher/Doctor pair and Wolf Ninja/Strongarm pair. Individually the Watcher/Doctor have internal pressure to act quickly before they die to use their charges, but don't want to waste it by walking into the wolf counter. The Ninja/Strongarm similarly don't want to pull the trigger too quickly, but can use it force kills through when absolutely necessary. I would consider adding a Night 2+ modifier to the Strongarm as well, and I go back and forth on making it a 1 or 2-shot, but I lean 1-shot especially if 13er. Wolves are pressured to hunt the PRs for both early game kill freedom, and avoid a late game Tracker->Cop upgrade, and the Wolf invest is intended to facilitate. Wolf invest I'm the least sure on, but I don't think it's correct to make it a Role Cop. Ninja existing has the slight benefit of making a Tracker not a cop if they're both alive in an endgame which is a plus.




    (Semi-)Open 13(15)er #2 Variant
    Village
    ---
    2-shot Watcher
    2-shot Doctor
    1x BPV Tracker
    7-9x VT

    Wolves
    ---
    1-shot Ninja Modifier
    2-shot Strongarm Modifier
    2-shot Tracker (Watcher? 1-shot Role Cop??)

    Same general idea as the previous one, but relatively more town power and higher pressure on wolves to PR hunt well. BPV makes the Strongarm very important, and the increased charges for the Watcher mean wolves can't perfectly counter both the doc and watch with modifiers, and will at least occasionally need to think about kills to avoid getting hosed by a PR. I would consider going to 3-shot Doc as well just to reduce sleep chances some and boost town power a bit more. Also think this variant has higher anti-mass claim pressure which is a plus. I'm a bit concerned about the wolves PR hunting tools, and I'm not sure what the best answer is. 2-shot Role Cop is the strongest I would even consider, but I really want wolves finding PRs by playing werewolf and have the button pressing solve only part of the puzzle.




    Also why can't we have 17ers again? I know there are some logistical concerns, but it's much easier to design good low power 17er setups than it is good low power 13er or 15er setups. There's just so much more design space with the 4th PR on both sides.

  9. ISO #259
    Wants It More Variance's Avatar
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    btw update on me trying to find an effective "anti early mass claim" solution which can be universally applied across open and semi-open setups

    fairly convinced that the following or something similar to it is the best possible solution:

    Once per game, either on Night 1 or Night 2, the Mafia may guess which players are Town's PRs (Power Roles) by submitting a list of 2 or 3 people (2 if there are 2 alive Town PRs, and 3 if there are 3 alive Town PRs).

    • Mafia are not allowed to submit a guess when there are only 0 or 1 Town PRs alive.
    • Mafia will only be told how many Town PRs they correctly determined from their guess - they will not be told which were correctly identified.
    • Mafia may decide to make no guess at all.

    Should the Mafia make a guess, they will receive a reward or punishment depending on how many Town PRs they correctly identified, as follows:

    3 Town PRs Remaining:
    • 0 Correct - An alive member of the Mafia, selected by the Mafia, will die the night after Mafia submits their guess.
    • 1 Correct - The Mafia will be unable to attack the night after Mafia submits their guess.
    • 2 Correct - No effect.
    • 3 Correct - The Mafia gain an unstoppable and untrackable kill for use the night after the Mafia submit their guess, alongside the factional kill.

    2 Town PRs Remaining:
    • 0 Correct - An alive member of the Mafia, selected by the Mafia, will die the night after Mafia submits their guess.
    • 1 Correct - The Mafia will be unable to attack the night after Mafia submits their guess.
    • 2 Correct - The Mafia gain an unstoppable and untrackable kill for use the night after the Mafia submit their guess, alongside the factional kill.

    my other attempt at a solution had some issues in regards to the ambiguity of someone "hinting" at their role, among other things that were essentially impossible to solve so that is definitely not the best way to go about it

    with this mechanic there's the question of whether it's 'too complex'. personally I think it's very easy to grasp especially if people are shown an example of how it's done practically. I think there are very few if any issues outside of this and from what i can see the benefits of effectively avoiding early massclaim outweigh drawbacks. but i guess we'll see in test games how effective it actually is, but i think theoretically it is good

    if there are a different number of town prs, e.g. 2 or 4, then variations can pretty easily be made from the general idea

    pretty much everything else i can think of is overly complex and/or has glaring issues such as not being feasible in an automated setting or altering strategy in an undesirable way (e.g. PR Vigs meaning mafia are better waiting for claims rather than effectively PR hunting)

  10. ISO #260
    Wants It More Variance's Avatar
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    @notblackorwhite

    i think in theory matrix setups can be really good but I agree that practically it is fairly difficult to create one that has an almost equal level of balance across all possible setups. open setups or having a few crafted setups, one of which can be randomised with overlap, would be more ideal in that regard because as you say they can be more carefully crafted, and as a result the individual setups tend to be more interesting as well if created correctly.

    I don't really agree that PRs being more naive is a weakness of matrix or semi-opens. In a way I think it's much more a testament of skill to need to consider a higher number of possibilities when trying to utilise a power role, rather than often one-dimensional play in open setups where a prevailing/obvious way of using the PRs can often be established by players quickly. If we were talking about closed I think I'd agree with you because PRs would often have literally no considerations to make in terms of the possible PRs that can exist, so play would become very basic, but with semi-open PRs do get a fair amount of information to go off.

    I think your ideas to have a few crafted open setups which are overlapping and randomising between these as the setup, or multiple open setups within the champs seasons, seem to be some of the best ways to go about things imo as they mean the setups dont become stale and/or strategies become discovered for certain setups as easily, while also having the benefit of being well-crafted.

    re: your setup ideas, thoughts:

    Village
    ---
    Compulsive Fruit Vendor
    Compulsive Motion Detector (Tracker?)
    N2+ 2-shot Vigi
    7-9x VT

    Wolves
    ---
    Fruit Vendor
    2-shot Tracker
    2-shot Roleblocker
    Personally not a fan of vigilantes in the context of champs due to swing involved, and because of its large potential utility value a large amount of whether a player would be considered as 'playing well' or 'playing bad' would naturally land with how they used their role due to its dramatic effect on the game, which imo is not ideal

    everything else seems fine, I would say it is maybe a bit wolf-sided given how in champs games villagers tend to do even worse than rand, and the town PRs here have low expected utility (despite having high variance due to town vig), but wolf-sided isn't actually too much of an issue in champs as which side actually wins doesnt matter too much

    I would probably replace the vig with a protective role such as a 2-shot or 3-shot Jailkeeper, as that feeds into the idea of not letting wolves be able to SPK easily while also keeping a high utility role that doesnt introduce as much variance as vigilante does

    (Semi-)Open 13(15)er #2
    Village
    ---
    1-shot Watcher
    2-shot Doctor
    Tracker
    7-9x VT

    Wolves
    ---
    1-shot Ninja Modifier
    1-shot Strongarm Modifier
    2-shot Tracker (Watcher?)
    interesting idea, I'm personally not too opposed to watcher here and it's very gated but bear in mind that some others might not be 100% there with this inclusion. but the idea revolving around disallowing mafia to make easy SPKs is cool, and not too overbearing as mafia have the strongarm and ninja to allow for some SPK power. I would definitely not recommend making it a 2-shot strongarm irrespective of 13p or 15p as it would be too much counterplay to the doctor. I would suggest making both the ninja and strongman n2+ (as you suggested for the strongman) so that mafia can't immediately SPK on N1, giving what would perhaps be the strongest player more time to shine

    Village
    ---
    2-shot Watcher
    2-shot Doctor
    1x BPV Tracker
    7-9x VT

    Wolves
    ---
    1-shot Ninja Modifier
    2-shot Strongarm Modifier
    2-shot Tracker (Watcher? 1-shot Role Cop??)
    I think your previous setup is a better variation of this idea imo, the BPV doesn't really add anything positive imo and has some things that I don't really like about it balance-wise (the utility of 1-shot bulletproof is randomised through the game rand itself so there's not much mafia can reliably do in terms of counterplay unless the 1-shot bpv tracker decides to claim - while there is the 2-shot strongman, there's essentially no gameplan in terms of how to use the strongman to counterplay the 1-shot bpv tracker, it'd be down to chance)

    and with the watcher becoming less gated i feel like players are more likely to take issue with the involvement of watcher in the setup

  11. ISO #261
    GOAT Tier notblackorwhite's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Variance (#260)
    I don't really agree that PRs being more naive is a weakness of matrix or semi-opens. In a way I think it's much more a testament of skill to need to consider a higher number of possibilities when trying to utilise a power role, rather than often one-dimensional play in open setups where a prevailing/obvious way of using the PRs can often be established by players quickly. If we were talking about closed I think I'd agree with you because PRs would often have literally no considerations to make in terms of the possible PRs that can exist, so play would become very basic, but with semi-open PRs do get a fair amount of information to go off.
    Kind of? It's partially a cognitive load issue where upfront complexity is more likely to make someone shut their brain off and go with whatever comes first, and partially that you'd have to ensure the matrix doesn't have conflicting strategies. Like if wolves know the setup based on their own role set and there are two variants with a doctor and in one wolves have a strongarm and in the other they don't, there isn't a strategic choice to be made. It's a coin flip.


    Quote Originally Posted by Variance (#260)
    Personally not a fan of vigilantes in the context of champs due to swing involved, and because of its large potential utility value a large amount of whether a player would be considered as 'playing well' or 'playing bad' would naturally land with how they used their role due to its dramatic effect on the game, which imo is not ideal
    Vigis are fine. Maybe slap an Even modifier on there (which I think makes it not necessary to be 2-shot so we can stay at 1 modifier) to reduce variance some. Thinking about it further it should probably be a 15er rather than a 13er but that might go for most of these setups just to marginally increase wolf wiggle room for misyeet candidates since it's very tight in a 3 PR 13er setup. It's fine though, and wolves need to be afraid of it being unchecked.

    Quote Originally Posted by Variance (#260)
    I would definitely not recommend making it a 2-shot strongarm irrespective of 13p or 15p as it would be too much counterplay to the doctor.

    . . .

    I think your previous setup is a better variation of this idea imo, the BPV doesn't really add anything positive imo and has some things that I don't really like about it balance-wise (the utility of 1-shot bulletproof is randomised through the game rand itself so there's not much mafia can reliably do in terms of counterplay unless the 1-shot bpv tracker decides to claim - while there is the 2-shot strongman, there's essentially no gameplan in terms of how to use the strongman to counterplay the 1-shot bpv tracker, it'd be down to chance)
    See the BPV addresses the first thing. It allows them to use a single strongarm shot relatively freely to force a kill through, but if they're afraid of the doctor and blow the second strongarm to force a kill through, the BPV punishes them significantly. BPV also has anti-claim pressure because it passively has high value as long as wolves don't know who the tracker is. A town BPV just plays really well with wolf strongarm.

    I agree that n2+ is still a good modifier to slap on the ninja/strongarm pair regardless to prevent the N1 "free" SPK probably.

    Quote Originally Posted by Variance (#260)
    and with the watcher becoming less gated i feel like players are more likely to take issue with the involvement of watcher in the setup
    It's an open setup. They can stop being weenies. It's fine. If you have a problem with a 2-shot watcher in an open setup especially when wolves have a ninja modifier you're a weenie.

  12. ISO #262
    GOAT Tier notblackorwhite's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by notblackorwhite (#261)
    It's an open setup. They can stop being weenies. It's fine. If you have a problem with a 2-shot watcher in an open setup especially when wolves have a ninja modifier you're a weenie.
    I take it back you're only a weenie if you have a problem with a 1-shot watcher against 1-shot wolf ninja. 2-shot watcher might be too much in a 15er after further consideration.

  13. ISO #263
    Wants It More DkKoba's Avatar
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    i dont like the setup but im too high to point it out

    my overall thoughts is that open format is just not very good for larger setups and that no matter what you do, the nature of claims being inherently either a forced CC if mafia choose to claim or if its a semi open you get into the territory pointed out before of a lot of bad variance in setup balance.


    tl;dr larger setups suck as opens

  14. ISO #264
    Wants It More DkKoba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DkKoba (#263)
    i dont like the setup but im too high to point it out

    my overall thoughts is that open format is just not very good for larger setups and that no matter what you do, the nature of claims being inherently either a forced CC if mafia choose to claim or if its a semi open you get into the territory pointed out before of a lot of bad variance in setup balance.


    tl;dr larger setups suck as opens
    too high to point out exactly how ***

  15. ISO #265
    GOAT Tier notblackorwhite's Avatar
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    Thinking further, I think having a 3 or 4 setup spread, and picking randomly from them should just be all good setups and not worry about overlapping them. It's fine if the wolves and PRs know the setup they're in. As long as the village has higher equity with PRs unclaimed, I think it's a net positive. PRs can make informed decisions, and PR hunting can be influenced more via TMI of PRs or lack thereof from VTs.

  16. ISO #266
    Wants It More Master Radishes's Avatar
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    I’m not reading all the setup specific details because it’s not my cup of tea, but I think we’re reaching the point where we have:
    -people arguing strongly that open setups are bad for Champs;
    -people arguing strongly that closed setups are bad for Champs; and
    -people arguing strongly that semi-open setups are bad for Champs.

    It’s almost as if we all have opinions and there is no universal Mafia Setup Truth.

  17. ISO #267
    Wants It More lucy's Avatar
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    amrock 14er and black/white setup options

  18. ISO #268
    GOAT Tier notblackorwhite's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Master Radishes (#266)
    I’m not reading all the setup specific details because it’s not my cup of tea, but I think we’re reaching the point where we have:
    -people arguing strongly that open setups are bad for Champs;
    -people arguing strongly that closed setups are bad for Champs; and
    -people arguing strongly that semi-open setups are bad for Champs.

    It’s almost as if we all have opinions and there is no universal Mafia Setup Truth.
    I wouldn't argue strongly against any of them, but I would argue about the details. All of have upsides and downsides.

    Semi-open tends to mean matrix setup and I would prefer to see Semi-open as one of many open setups or a setup composed with a known set of constraints and small pool of roles. I would agree with Koba that matrix semi-open setups have a pretty bad variance problem, but I'm advocating for semi-open that means something other than a matrix.

    On the other hand, Koba's argument against Open setups seems to be that PRs will just claim, and that it's damaging to wolf equity which is not wrong per se, but the implication is the damage it does to wolf equity is devastating. That's a position that feels close to objectively wrong given wolves could still win in Season 8 with Gold Rush bucket claiming, and I've personally been a wolf in three or four 3 PR D6 13er setups, and never lost (it being semi-open was never taken advantage of by any of those teams). Mass claiming I believe is a consequence of design constraints, and one that I think can be addressed as not all open 13ers have developed a mass claiming meta game.

    Closed setups are fine in theory, but I would have logistical concerns. Creating like 14 balanced and diverse 13/15er setups using a small role pool, and other design constraints is not trivial. They couldn't be tested (at least not publicly), and requires designers, balance reviews, and organizer reviews. I'm not even sure if you could make 14 diverse setups with the same number of players, and faction balance with all the constraints of Champs, but idk it's worth a try. However, they'd need to commit to it relatively soon, and start working on setups relatively soon.

  19. ISO #269
    Wants It More Variance's Avatar
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    A big issue with just having 1 open setup in champs imo is that the setup becomes stale and gets 'figured out' over the course of a champs season

    It's also bad in terms of appeasing players - if someone doesn't like a setup then they just have to either deal with it or not play, there's not even a "there might be a setup that looks cool".

    Bringing me to my idea:

    Have say 4 or 5 open setups available, but rather than picking randomly between them, let players choose their preferences for each setup in a list from 1 (most preferred) to 5 (least preferred). then put the players in games which would maximise their setup preference - if 1 isn't possible then you can use their 2nd preference.

    this idea kills 2 big issues of open setups in champs with 1 stone, there's now a variety of setups so it doesn't get stale as easily and players get to play in one that they're much more likely to enjoy

  20. ISO #270
    Hype! Arapocalypse's Avatar Discord Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by notblackorwhite (#258)
    Also why can't we have 17ers again? I know there are some logistical concerns, but it's much easier to design good low power 17er setups than it is good low power 13er or 15er setups. There's just so much more design space with the 4th PR on both sides.
    If you want to design a 17er setup feel free to, but you're right in that the logistical issues make it so that it's unlikely to be picked over the multiple smaller setups which have been suggested thus far!!

    I've skimmed the other setups and will get into them in a bit more detail (probably) later, though one thing that does stand out is the focus on mafia hunting for PRs... that doesn't happen much when town PRs make it easy for them by claiming, which I recall was the issue with your last one as well!!!

  21. ISO #271
    Galaxy Brain Jaleb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arapocalypse (#270)
    Quote Originally Posted by notblackorwhite (#258)
    Also why can't we have 17ers again? I know there are some logistical concerns, but it's much easier to design good low power 17er setups than it is good low power 13er or 15er setups. There's just so much more design space with the 4th PR on both sides.
    If you want to design a 17er setup feel free to, but you're right in that the logistical issues make it so that it's unlikely to be picked over the multiple smaller setups which have been suggested thus far!!

    I've skimmed the other setups and will get into them in a bit more detail (probably) later, though one thing that does stand out is the focus on mafia hunting for PRs... that doesn't happen much when town PRs make it easy for them by claiming, which I recall was the issue with your last one as well!!!
    17ers with a 2 shot poisoner on each side would be great.

  22. ISO #272
    GOAT Tier notblackorwhite's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arapocalypse (#270)
    Quote Originally Posted by notblackorwhite (#258)
    Also why can't we have 17ers again? I know there are some logistical concerns, but it's much easier to design good low power 17er setups than it is good low power 13er or 15er setups. There's just so much more design space with the 4th PR on both sides.
    If you want to design a 17er setup feel free to, but you're right in that the logistical issues make it so that it's unlikely to be picked over the multiple smaller setups which have been suggested thus far!!

    I've skimmed the other setups and will get into them in a bit more detail (probably) later, though one thing that does stand out is the focus on mafia hunting for PRs... that doesn't happen much when town PRs make it easy for them by claiming, which I recall was the issue with your last one as well!!!
    Yeah which was disappointing. I've tried to mitigate that in the ones I've pitched although it might still happen which is why having multiple setups is worth trying since I think that'll prevent it from happening as much.

  23. ISO #273
    Wants It More Variance's Avatar
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    thoughts

    setups liable to change etc but i think something like this would be neat

    another idea is to mix in semi-open setups as well but i think, because semi-opens tend to be more complex, it's better to leave it as just opens

    the additional mechanic could be removed if deemed that nothing will need to be done about early massclaims

    SETUP DETERMINATIONEach representative may place the setups shown below in order of which they would most like to play, and will then be assigned to games based on their preferences. If they are unable to get their 1st preference, then their 2nd choice will be the next priority, and so on. For the finale, the setup which has the highest average preference rating among the finale players will be the one that is chosen.

    Setup 1 - Low Power Setup 2 - Protective Focus Setup 3 - Investigative Focus Setup 4 - High Power
    Town 1-shot Doctor

    Town 1-shot Weak Vigilante N2+

    10x Vanilla Town

    Mafia 2-shot Roleblocker

    Mafia Universal Backup

    Mafia Goon
    Town Even Night Jailkeeper

    Town Odd Night Doctor

    10x Vanilla Town

    Mafia 1-shot Strongman N2+

    Mafia 2-shot Role Cop

    Mafia 2-shot Roleblocker
    Town 2-shot Tracker

    Town 1-shot Doctor

    Town 2-shot Role Cop

    9x Vanilla Town

    Mafia 2-shot Tracker

    Mafia 1-shot Doctor

    Mafia 2-shot Roleblocker
    Town JOAT (1x Motion Detect, 1x Doctor, 1x Roleblock)

    Town 3-shot Tracker

    Town 2-shot Jailkeeper

    9x Vanilla Town

    Mafia JOAT (1x Strongman, 1x Neapolitan, 1x Roleblock)

    Mafia Roleblocker

    Mafia Role Cop


    ADDITIONAL MECHANICRegardless of which setup is played, the following mechanic will be put in place to prevent early massclaims:

    Once per game, either on Night 1 or Night 2, the Mafia may guess which players are Town's PRs (Power Roles) by submitting a list of 2 or 3 people (2 if there are 2 alive Town PRs, and 3 if there are 3 alive Town PRs).

    • Mafia are not allowed to submit a guess when there are only 0 or 1 Town PRs alive.
    • Mafia will only be told how many Town PRs they correctly determined from their guess - they will not be told which were correctly identified.
    • Mafia may decide to make no guess at all.

    Should the Mafia make a guess, they will receive a reward or punishment depending on how many Town PRs they correctly identified, as follows:

    3 Town PRs Remaining:
    • 0 Correct - An alive member of the Mafia, selected by the Mafia, will die the night after Mafia submits their guess.
    • 1 Correct - The Mafia will be unable to attack the night after Mafia submits their guess.
    • 2 Correct - No effect.
    • 3 Correct - The Mafia gain an unstoppable and untrackable kill for use the night after the Mafia submit their guess, alongside the factional kill.

    2 Town PRs Remaining:
    • 0 Correct - An alive member of the Mafia, selected by the Mafia, will die the night after Mafia submits their guess.
    • 1 Correct - The Mafia will be unable to attack the night after Mafia submits their guess.
    • 2 Correct - The Mafia gain an unstoppable and untrackable kill for use the night after the Mafia submit their guess, alongside the factional kill.

  24. ISO #274
    GOAT Tier notblackorwhite's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Variance (#273)
    thoughts

    setups liable to change etc but i think something like this would be neat

    another idea is to mix in semi-open setups as well but i think, because semi-opens tend to be more complex, it's better to leave it as just opens

    the additional mechanic could be removed if deemed that nothing will need to be done about early massclaims

    SETUP DETERMINATIONEach representative may place the setups shown below in order of which they would most like to play, and will then be assigned to games based on their preferences. If they are unable to get their 1st preference, then their 2nd choice will be the next priority, and so on. For the finale, the setup which has the highest average preference rating among the finale players will be the one that is chosen.

    Setup 1 - Low Power Setup 2 - Protective Focus Setup 3 - Investigative Focus Setup 4 - High Power
    Town 1-shot Doctor

    Town 1-shot Weak Vigilante N2+

    10x Vanilla Town

    Mafia 2-shot Roleblocker

    Mafia Universal Backup

    Mafia Goon
    Town Even Night Jailkeeper

    Town Odd Night Doctor

    10x Vanilla Town

    Mafia 1-shot Strongman N2+

    Mafia 2-shot Role Cop

    Mafia 2-shot Roleblocker
    Town 2-shot Tracker

    Town 1-shot Doctor

    Town 2-shot Role Cop

    9x Vanilla Town

    Mafia 2-shot Tracker

    Mafia 1-shot Doctor

    Mafia 2-shot Roleblocker
    Town JOAT (1x Motion Detect, 1x Doctor, 1x Roleblock)

    Town 3-shot Tracker

    Town 2-shot Jailkeeper

    9x Vanilla Town

    Mafia JOAT (1x Strongman, 1x Neapolitan, 1x Roleblock)

    Mafia Roleblocker

    Mafia Role Cop


    ADDITIONAL MECHANICRegardless of which setup is played, the following mechanic will be put in place to prevent early massclaims:

    Once per game, either on Night 1 or Night 2, the Mafia may guess which players are Town's PRs (Power Roles) by submitting a list of 2 or 3 people (2 if there are 2 alive Town PRs, and 3 if there are 3 alive Town PRs).

    • Mafia are not allowed to submit a guess when there are only 0 or 1 Town PRs alive.
    • Mafia will only be told how many Town PRs they correctly determined from their guess - they will not be told which were correctly identified.
    • Mafia may decide to make no guess at all.

    Should the Mafia make a guess, they will receive a reward or punishment depending on how many Town PRs they correctly identified, as follows:

    3 Town PRs Remaining:
    • 0 Correct - An alive member of the Mafia, selected by the Mafia, will die the night after Mafia submits their guess.
    • 1 Correct - The Mafia will be unable to attack the night after Mafia submits their guess.
    • 2 Correct - No effect.
    • 3 Correct - The Mafia gain an unstoppable and untrackable kill for use the night after the Mafia submit their guess, alongside the factional kill.

    2 Town PRs Remaining:
    • 0 Correct - An alive member of the Mafia, selected by the Mafia, will die the night after Mafia submits their guess.
    • 1 Correct - The Mafia will be unable to attack the night after Mafia submits their guess.
    • 2 Correct - The Mafia gain an unstoppable and untrackable kill for use the night after the Mafia submit their guess, alongside the factional kill.
    Setup 3 I would probably change the role cop to a vanilla cop, and setup 2 I would get rid of the strongman, and change the role cop to a tracker/watcher. Setup 1 I have no idea why wolves need a Universal Backup? It just seems outrageous. Setup 4 has a full Roleblocker and Role Cop against... not enough to warrant those. Just seems like the wolves have enough power to completely overwhelm the town PRs and pretty quickly.

    Your anti-mass claim mechanic seems like a non-starter for champs. Even if it was the sort of thing the organizers would be interested in (I suspect it's not), it would need to be automated which is gonna be a big ask. Did I miss Ara or someone else saying this was going to be considered or something?

  25. ISO #275
    Wants It More Variance's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by notblackorwhite (#274)
    Quote Originally Posted by Variance (#273)
    thoughts

    setups liable to change etc but i think something like this would be neat

    another idea is to mix in semi-open setups as well but i think, because semi-opens tend to be more complex, it's better to leave it as just opens

    the additional mechanic could be removed if deemed that nothing will need to be done about early massclaims

    SETUP DETERMINATIONEach representative may place the setups shown below in order of which they would most like to play, and will then be assigned to games based on their preferences. If they are unable to get their 1st preference, then their 2nd choice will be the next priority, and so on. For the finale, the setup which has the highest average preference rating among the finale players will be the one that is chosen.

    Setup 1 - Low Power Setup 2 - Protective Focus Setup 3 - Investigative Focus Setup 4 - High Power
    Town 1-shot Doctor

    Town 1-shot Weak Vigilante N2+

    10x Vanilla Town

    Mafia 2-shot Roleblocker

    Mafia Universal Backup

    Mafia Goon
    Town Even Night Jailkeeper

    Town Odd Night Doctor

    10x Vanilla Town

    Mafia 1-shot Strongman N2+

    Mafia 2-shot Role Cop

    Mafia 2-shot Roleblocker
    Town 2-shot Tracker

    Town 1-shot Doctor

    Town 2-shot Role Cop

    9x Vanilla Town

    Mafia 2-shot Tracker

    Mafia 1-shot Doctor

    Mafia 2-shot Roleblocker
    Town JOAT (1x Motion Detect, 1x Doctor, 1x Roleblock)

    Town 3-shot Tracker

    Town 2-shot Jailkeeper

    9x Vanilla Town

    Mafia JOAT (1x Strongman, 1x Neapolitan, 1x Roleblock)

    Mafia Roleblocker

    Mafia Role Cop


    ADDITIONAL MECHANICRegardless of which setup is played, the following mechanic will be put in place to prevent early massclaims:

    Once per game, either on Night 1 or Night 2, the Mafia may guess which players are Town's PRs (Power Roles) by submitting a list of 2 or 3 people (2 if there are 2 alive Town PRs, and 3 if there are 3 alive Town PRs).

    • Mafia are not allowed to submit a guess when there are only 0 or 1 Town PRs alive.
    • Mafia will only be told how many Town PRs they correctly determined from their guess - they will not be told which were correctly identified.
    • Mafia may decide to make no guess at all.

    Should the Mafia make a guess, they will receive a reward or punishment depending on how many Town PRs they correctly identified, as follows:

    3 Town PRs Remaining:
    • 0 Correct - An alive member of the Mafia, selected by the Mafia, will die the night after Mafia submits their guess.
    • 1 Correct - The Mafia will be unable to attack the night after Mafia submits their guess.
    • 2 Correct - No effect.
    • 3 Correct - The Mafia gain an unstoppable and untrackable kill for use the night after the Mafia submit their guess, alongside the factional kill.

    2 Town PRs Remaining:
    • 0 Correct - An alive member of the Mafia, selected by the Mafia, will die the night after Mafia submits their guess.
    • 1 Correct - The Mafia will be unable to attack the night after Mafia submits their guess.
    • 2 Correct - The Mafia gain an unstoppable and untrackable kill for use the night after the Mafia submit their guess, alongside the factional kill.
    Setup 3 I would probably change the role cop to a vanilla cop, and setup 2 I would get rid of the strongman, and change the role cop to a tracker/watcher. Setup 1 I have no idea why wolves need a Universal Backup? It just seems outrageous. Setup 4 has a full Roleblocker and Role Cop against... not enough to warrant those. Just seems like the wolves have enough power to completely overwhelm the town PRs and pretty quickly.

    Your anti-mass claim mechanic seems like a non-starter for champs. Even if it was the sort of thing the organizers would be interested in (I suspect it's not), it would need to be automated which is gonna be a big ask. Did I miss Ara or someone else saying this was going to be considered or something?
    yeah i agree with role cop -> vanilla cop for 3rd setup, can make the 1-shot Doctor a Mafia Goon with that as well as no longer needed without role cop. I'm guessing your suggested changes for setup 2 are a result of it being fairly wolfsided compared to setup 3 for example, so yeah those seem reasonable.

    universal backup is there in setup 1 to reduce swing involved should mafia roleblocker die early, not entirely necessary but I prefer it with than without. but i understand it may be making it too wolf-sided. to be honest it might be best to just make it so that all 3 mafias are goons

    agree 4th setup wolf PRs are too strong. JOAT => 1-shot Strongman and making the Roleblocker and Role Cop both 2-shot would probably work

    additional mechanic is put in there as an optional thing, realistically i don't see it being used because it looks outlandish, but I believe something along those lines is the best feasible solution to avoiding early massclaims from town while minimising potential issues. The only other thing that might be effective that isn't outlandish is having the setup be one where Town inherently wouldn't ever want to massclaim, and the only open setups where I have ever seen that being the case are setups where there is 1 town pr (particularly where the PR is high power), but those setups tend to have issues of being too close to mountainous / wolfsided (if the 1 town pr is low power) or high swing due to heavy dependence on the lifespan of a single strong town pr (if the 1 town pr is high power).

    automating the mechanic seems like it definitely wouldn't be a big ask. the host maybe has to parse a list of guesses from mafia on 1 night, and from that maybe has to take an additional kill action from mafia or change a setting on 1 night

  26. ISO #276
    Wants It More Variance's Avatar
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    like sure that's not technically fully automatable but it requires very minimal input on part of the host

    and good luck finding an effective anti early mass claim mechanic that doesn't require at least some manual input on part of the host

  27. ISO #277
    Wants It More Variance's Avatar
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    question mark

    Setup 1 - Low Power Setup 2 - Protective Focus Setup 3 - Investigative Focus Setup 4 - High Power
    Town 1-shot Doctor

    Town 1-shot Weak Vigilante N2+

    10x Vanilla Town

    Mafia Goon

    Mafia Goon

    Mafia Goon
    Town Even Night Jailkeeper

    Town Odd Night Doctor

    10x Vanilla Town

    Mafia 2-shot Watcher

    Mafia 2-shot Roleblocker

    Mafia Goon
    Town 2-shot Tracker

    Town 1-shot Doctor

    Town 2-shot Vanilla Cop

    9x Vanilla Town

    Mafia 2-shot Tracker

    Mafia 2-shot Roleblocker

    Mafia Goon
    Town JOAT (1x Motion Detect, 1x Doctor, 1x Roleblock)

    Town 3-shot Tracker

    Town 2-shot Jailkeeper

    9x Vanilla Town

    Mafia 1-shot Strongman N2+

    Mafia 2-shot Role Cop

    Mafia 3-shot Roleblocker

  28. ISO #278
    Wants It More Variance's Avatar
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    i think if you want to go the route of no external mechanic that eliminates odds of town early massclaiming, then 2 Town PRs is definitely the best way to go rather than 3, as town gets less benefit should they decide to early massclaim, subsequently reducing the odds of them doing it in the first place

    obviously 1 town PR would be best for this but there are other issues with 1 Town PR that I described previously, either it's too close to mountainous / wolf sided or is high swing with heavy dependency on the PR's lifespan

  29. ISO #279
    Wants It More Variance's Avatar
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    variation with town getting 2 PRs in each setup and no anti early mass claim mechanic

    Each representative may place the setups shown below in order of which they would most like to play, and will then be assigned to games based on their preferences. If they are unable to get their 1st preference, then their 2nd choice will be the next priority, and so on. For the finale, the setup which has the highest average preference rating among the finale players will be the one that is chosen.

    Setup 1 - Low Power Setup 2 - Protective Focus Setup 3 - Investigative Focus Setup 4 - High Power
    Town 1-shot Doctor

    Town 1-shot Weak Vigilante N2+

    10x Vanilla Town

    Mafia Goon

    Mafia Goon

    Mafia Goon
    Town Even Night Jailkeeper

    Town Odd Night Doctor

    10x Vanilla Town

    Mafia 2-shot Watcher

    Mafia 2-shot Roleblocker

    Mafia Goon
    Town Even Night Tracker

    Town Odd Night Vanilla Cop

    10x Vanilla Town

    Mafia 2-shot Tracker

    Mafia 2-shot Roleblocker

    Mafia Goon
    Town Tracker

    Town Doctor

    10x Vanilla Town

    Mafia 2-shot Role Cop

    Mafia 3-shot Roleblocker

    Mafia Universal Backup

    setup 3 is a bit annoying because there's not a great way to incorporate anti-SPK measures, without introducing watcher, that still keeps it as an investigative focus

    I guess you could do something like JOAT (1x Doctor, 2x Track) and then Vanilla Cop with some modifier

    but then again i guess if players want a setup where town has anti-SPK measures then they could choose any of the other 3 setups, so not sure if it matters too much

    thoughts?

  30. ISO #280
    Thread Analyst FrostburnPhoenix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Variance (#279)
    Each representative may place the setups shown below in order of which they would most like to play, and will then be assigned to games based on their preferences. If they are unable to get their 1st preference, then their 2nd choice will be the next priority, and so on. For the finale, the setup which has the highest average preference rating among the finale players will be the one that is chosen.
    I Really don't think think this a great idea. Just randomize it.

    I'm not qualified to say anything about balance but a 1-shot Jailer/JOAT could possibly serve as a substitute for the Tracker in setup 3 if you need to reduce SPK. I Just really don't like how each setup has a protective role in that case. At least one should probably use an alternative way of reducing SPK, if you need to reduce SPK.

  31. ISO #281
    GOAT Tier notblackorwhite's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Variance (#275)
    Quote Originally Posted by notblackorwhite (#274)
    Quote Originally Posted by Variance (#273)
    thoughts

    setups liable to change etc but i think something like this would be neat

    another idea is to mix in semi-open setups as well but i think, because semi-opens tend to be more complex, it's better to leave it as just opens

    the additional mechanic could be removed if deemed that nothing will need to be done about early massclaims

    SETUP DETERMINATIONEach representative may place the setups shown below in order of which they would most like to play, and will then be assigned to games based on their preferences. If they are unable to get their 1st preference, then their 2nd choice will be the next priority, and so on. For the finale, the setup which has the highest average preference rating among the finale players will be the one that is chosen.

    Setup 1 - Low Power Setup 2 - Protective Focus Setup 3 - Investigative Focus Setup 4 - High Power
    Town 1-shot Doctor

    Town 1-shot Weak Vigilante N2+

    10x Vanilla Town

    Mafia 2-shot Roleblocker

    Mafia Universal Backup

    Mafia Goon
    Town Even Night Jailkeeper

    Town Odd Night Doctor

    10x Vanilla Town

    Mafia 1-shot Strongman N2+

    Mafia 2-shot Role Cop

    Mafia 2-shot Roleblocker
    Town 2-shot Tracker

    Town 1-shot Doctor

    Town 2-shot Role Cop

    9x Vanilla Town

    Mafia 2-shot Tracker

    Mafia 1-shot Doctor

    Mafia 2-shot Roleblocker
    Town JOAT (1x Motion Detect, 1x Doctor, 1x Roleblock)

    Town 3-shot Tracker

    Town 2-shot Jailkeeper

    9x Vanilla Town

    Mafia JOAT (1x Strongman, 1x Neapolitan, 1x Roleblock)

    Mafia Roleblocker

    Mafia Role Cop


    ADDITIONAL MECHANICRegardless of which setup is played, the following mechanic will be put in place to prevent early massclaims:

    Once per game, either on Night 1 or Night 2, the Mafia may guess which players are Town's PRs (Power Roles) by submitting a list of 2 or 3 people (2 if there are 2 alive Town PRs, and 3 if there are 3 alive Town PRs).

    • Mafia are not allowed to submit a guess when there are only 0 or 1 Town PRs alive.
    • Mafia will only be told how many Town PRs they correctly determined from their guess - they will not be told which were correctly identified.
    • Mafia may decide to make no guess at all.

    Should the Mafia make a guess, they will receive a reward or punishment depending on how many Town PRs they correctly identified, as follows:

    3 Town PRs Remaining:
    • 0 Correct - An alive member of the Mafia, selected by the Mafia, will die the night after Mafia submits their guess.
    • 1 Correct - The Mafia will be unable to attack the night after Mafia submits their guess.
    • 2 Correct - No effect.
    • 3 Correct - The Mafia gain an unstoppable and untrackable kill for use the night after the Mafia submit their guess, alongside the factional kill.

    2 Town PRs Remaining:
    • 0 Correct - An alive member of the Mafia, selected by the Mafia, will die the night after Mafia submits their guess.
    • 1 Correct - The Mafia will be unable to attack the night after Mafia submits their guess.
    • 2 Correct - The Mafia gain an unstoppable and untrackable kill for use the night after the Mafia submit their guess, alongside the factional kill.
    Setup 3 I would probably change the role cop to a vanilla cop, and setup 2 I would get rid of the strongman, and change the role cop to a tracker/watcher. Setup 1 I have no idea why wolves need a Universal Backup? It just seems outrageous. Setup 4 has a full Roleblocker and Role Cop against... not enough to warrant those. Just seems like the wolves have enough power to completely overwhelm the town PRs and pretty quickly.

    Your anti-mass claim mechanic seems like a non-starter for champs. Even if it was the sort of thing the organizers would be interested in (I suspect it's not), it would need to be automated which is gonna be a big ask. Did I miss Ara or someone else saying this was going to be considered or something?
    yeah i agree with role cop -> vanilla cop for 3rd setup, can make the 1-shot Doctor a Mafia Goon with that as well as no longer needed without role cop. I'm guessing your suggested changes for setup 2 are a result of it being fairly wolfsided compared to setup 3 for example, so yeah those seem reasonable.

    universal backup is there in setup 1 to reduce swing involved should mafia roleblocker die early, not entirely necessary but I prefer it with than without. but i understand it may be making it too wolf-sided. to be honest it might be best to just make it so that all 3 mafias are goons

    agree 4th setup wolf PRs are too strong. JOAT => 1-shot Strongman and making the Roleblocker and Role Cop both 2-shot would probably work

    additional mechanic is put in there as an optional thing, realistically i don't see it being used because it looks outlandish, but I believe something along those lines is the best feasible solution to avoiding early massclaims from town while minimising potential issues. The only other thing that might be effective that isn't outlandish is having the setup be one where Town inherently wouldn't ever want to massclaim, and the only open setups where I have ever seen that being the case are setups where there is 1 town pr (particularly where the PR is high power), but those setups tend to have issues of being too close to mountainous / wolfsided (if the 1 town pr is low power) or high swing due to heavy dependence on the lifespan of a single strong town pr (if the 1 town pr is high power).

    automating the mechanic seems like it definitely wouldn't be a big ask. the host maybe has to parse a list of guesses from mafia on 1 night, and from that maybe has to take an additional kill action from mafia or change a setting on 1 night
    It's a 1-shot doctor and 1-shot vigi. The potential outcomes here are pretty narrow like town can only gain a kill if the 1-shot doctor gets a save and the vigi shoots. Vigi shooting and doctor getting a save are both neutral KP changes and the doctor getting a save is a confirmed which is good but relatively rare even with a full doctor. Delta of variance is extremely low even if wolves don't have a roleblocker at all. The universal backup matters if the roleblocker dies, the doctor would get a save with their action, the vigi will shoot before dying, and the wolves would've accurately blocked a PR without killing them earlier. It's just not gonna happen, and wolves getting punished for letting their one PR die is... fine? Good actually? Universal backup is just excessive.

    Quote Originally Posted by Variance (#276)
    like sure that's not technically fully automatable but it requires very minimal input on part of the host

    and good luck finding an effective anti early mass claim mechanic that doesn't require at least some manual input on part of the host
    Not every powered 13er has a mass claim problem, and I think people are typically mass claim averse by default so as long as you're not adding too much pressure to mass claim, they're not going to. It was a major issue with Gold Rush because it didn't have role flips, pretty weak town PRs, and the consensus was the village was more likely to lose equity from wolf fake claim potential than they were the PRs. With role flips, mass claims probably don't become meta with the same set of roles.

    Quote Originally Posted by Variance (#278)
    i think if you want to go the route of no external mechanic that eliminates odds of town early massclaiming, then 2 Town PRs is definitely the best way to go rather than 3, as town gets less benefit should they decide to early massclaim, subsequently reducing the odds of them doing it in the first place

    obviously 1 town PR would be best for this but there are other issues with 1 Town PR that I described previously, either it's too close to mountainous / wolf sided or is high swing with heavy dependency on the PR's lifespan
    Yeah there's some merit to this line of thinking. I feel like 2 PR setups tend to be pretty uninteresting mechanics wise with a relatively low skill ceiling, but I won't pretend there isn't merit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Variance (#279)
    variation with town getting 2 PRs in each setup and no anti early mass claim mechanic

    Each representative may place the setups shown below in order of which they would most like to play, and will then be assigned to games based on their preferences. If they are unable to get their 1st preference, then their 2nd choice will be the next priority, and so on. For the finale, the setup which has the highest average preference rating among the finale players will be the one that is chosen.

    Setup 1 - Low Power Setup 2 - Protective Focus Setup 3 - Investigative Focus Setup 4 - High Power
    Town 1-shot Doctor

    Town 1-shot Weak Vigilante N2+

    10x Vanilla Town

    Mafia Goon

    Mafia Goon

    Mafia Goon
    Town Even Night Jailkeeper

    Town Odd Night Doctor

    10x Vanilla Town

    Mafia 2-shot Watcher

    Mafia 2-shot Roleblocker

    Mafia Goon
    Town Even Night Tracker

    Town Odd Night Vanilla Cop

    10x Vanilla Town

    Mafia 2-shot Tracker

    Mafia 2-shot Roleblocker

    Mafia Goon
    Town Tracker

    Town Doctor

    10x Vanilla Town

    Mafia 2-shot Role Cop

    Mafia 3-shot Roleblocker

    Mafia Universal Backup

    setup 3 is a bit annoying because there's not a great way to incorporate anti-SPK measures, without introducing watcher, that still keeps it as an investigative focus

    I guess you could do something like JOAT (1x Doctor, 2x Track) and then Vanilla Cop with some modifier

    but then again i guess if players want a setup where town has anti-SPK measures then they could choose any of the other 3 setups, so not sure if it matters too much

    thoughts?
    Setup 1 I just noticed it was a Weak Vigi so I'd add the 2-shot RBer back into it (the backup makes more sense now but still seems unnecessary). Setup 2 is fine, and I think my favorite of the four. Setup 3 I may swap the parity of the Tracker and Cop so the Cop is on Even, but this setup really benefits from a 3rd PR potential interest wise so there are more Cop hits and equal probability at rand. Setup 4 is... fine. Again Universal Backup seems excessive and I don't think wolves need the help really, but it's whatever. I would maybe do full wolf RBer instead of 3-shot, and cut the universal backup. I think making the RBer less expendable and not give them a backup creates more room for interest.

    Also I am hesitant to make the setup choice preference based for both logistical reasons, and competitive integrity reasons (this may or may not be a weak reason, but it's something to think about). I would still advocate for 3-4 similar powered setups that are chosen, and not announced which setup is being used for a particular game until rand.

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    Thread Analyst FrostburnPhoenix's Avatar
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    Also make the tracker in setup 4 Macho to prevent them from being pressured into claiming and clearing themselves, which also would happen to encourage SPKs.

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    Wants It More Variance's Avatar
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    yeah actually, logistically speaking, a preference ordering would maybe be more difficult than i initially thought without impacting competitive integrity

    Actually gathering the preferences from each player would be extremely easy; there's already the google form that goes out where reps can put in their preferences for game length, date of game, etc so it'd be very easy to slip that in there.

    However the issue lies in the preferences for which factors (setup played, game length, date of game, etc) would be highest priority for the player. It can be argued that those who are more freely available are more easily able to place a higher priority on the setup they get placed in, compared to those who would be more likely to place things like date of game as the highest priority, technically giving them some edge because they have better odds of being placed in a setup better for them

    Workaround is to force setup choice preference to be the same priority value for all players, but this has issues of its own; put it as a priority anywhere other than forcibly last, then there is the possibility of a factor being lower priority than setup choice preference, despite the player wanting this factor to be higher priority. And if you make setup choice preference forcibly a last priority then it likely does not have much effect on which game the player is put in

    unfortunate that there's probably no 100% ideal solution there, because I think that players being much more likely to be put in games they actually enjoy is a really desirable factor. But I think there must surely be something that works to mitigate impacts on competitive integrity though? Really think this is something worth delving deeper into.

    I think competitive integrity issues caused by players knowing what the setup will be before it's actually played is fairly small. Open setups are linear to a point where, much of the time, they can be 'figured out' by just looking at it once. Sure people can discuss the setup before but... eh, is this really actually doing that much, idk.

    and there are some issues to consider with revealing setups after game rands, most notably that there would be a limited pool of setup designers and their process / game design cannot be seen by the public, so setups created are put under less scrutiny and more prone to bias. also players have less of an idea of what they are getting into so may be more toxic / lower WIM upon getting something they don't want. granted these are fairly minor issues as well, the former of which can be mitigated by having a good number of setup reviewers.

    fairly indifferent as to whether revealing setups before rand or revealing setups at rand would be better, both are fine, but the latter is maybe marginally better

  34. ISO #284
    Wants It More Variance's Avatar
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    oh wait i think you are saying 3-4 setups can be viewed before rand but the setup for a specific game isnt known? in which case nvm. thought you meant the 3-4 setups can't be seen before rand. yea that is the best option then

    Quote Originally Posted by FrostburnPhoenix (#280)
    Quote Originally Posted by Variance (#279)
    Each representative may place the setups shown below in order of which they would most like to play, and will then be assigned to games based on their preferences. If they are unable to get their 1st preference, then their 2nd choice will be the next priority, and so on. For the finale, the setup which has the highest average preference rating among the finale players will be the one that is chosen.
    I Really don't think think this a great idea. Just randomize it.

    I'm not qualified to say anything about balance but a 1-shot Jailer/JOAT could possibly serve as a substitute for the Tracker in setup 3 if you need to reduce SPK. I Just really don't like how each setup has a protective role in that case. At least one should probably use an alternative way of reducing SPK, if you need to reduce SPK.
    isusue is if 1-shot JK replced tracker it'd no longer be investigative focused. ig JOAT with 1-shot Jailkeep + 1-shot/2-shot Track would work

  35. ISO #285
    Thread Analyst FrostburnPhoenix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Variance (#284)
    oh wait i think you are saying 3-4 setups can be viewed before rand but the setup for a specific game isnt known? in which case nvm. thought you meant the 3-4 setups can't be seen before rand. yea that is the best option then

    Quote Originally Posted by FrostburnPhoenix (#280)
    Quote Originally Posted by Variance (#279)
    Each representative may place the setups shown below in order of which they would most like to play, and will then be assigned to games based on their preferences. If they are unable to get their 1st preference, then their 2nd choice will be the next priority, and so on. For the finale, the setup which has the highest average preference rating among the finale players will be the one that is chosen.
    I Really don't think think this a great idea. Just randomize it.

    I'm not qualified to say anything about balance but a 1-shot Jailer/JOAT could possibly serve as a substitute for the Tracker in setup 3 if you need to reduce SPK. I Just really don't like how each setup has a protective role in that case. At least one should probably use an alternative way of reducing SPK, if you need to reduce SPK.
    isusue is if 1-shot JK replced tracker it'd no longer be investigative focused. ig JOAT with 1-shot Jailkeep + 1-shot/2-shot Track would work
    I Didn't notice it was supposed to be investigative focused. I Would say swap the town tracker with a watcher, but that would townside it when it's already townsided from the vanilla cop being equal to a odd(even?) night alignment cop + a godfather and miller.

  36. ISO #286
    Thread Analyst FrostburnPhoenix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FrostburnPhoenix (#285)
    Quote Originally Posted by Variance (#284)
    oh wait i think you are saying 3-4 setups can be viewed before rand but the setup for a specific game isnt known? in which case nvm. thought you meant the 3-4 setups can't be seen before rand. yea that is the best option then

    Quote Originally Posted by FrostburnPhoenix (#280)
    Quote Originally Posted by Variance (#279)
    Each representative may place the setups shown below in order of which they would most like to play, and will then be assigned to games based on their preferences. If they are unable to get their 1st preference, then their 2nd choice will be the next priority, and so on. For the finale, the setup which has the highest average preference rating among the finale players will be the one that is chosen.
    I Really don't think think this a great idea. Just randomize it.

    I'm not qualified to say anything about balance but a 1-shot Jailer/JOAT could possibly serve as a substitute for the Tracker in setup 3 if you need to reduce SPK. I Just really don't like how each setup has a protective role in that case. At least one should probably use an alternative way of reducing SPK, if you need to reduce SPK.
    isusue is if 1-shot JK replced tracker it'd no longer be investigative focused. ig JOAT with 1-shot Jailkeep + 1-shot/2-shot Track would work
    I Didn't notice it was supposed to be investigative focused. I Would say swap the town tracker with a watcher, but that would townside it when it's already townsided from the vanilla cop being equal to a odd(even?) night alignment cop + a godfather and miller.
    It might fine actually, but it's weird to punish mafia more for losing their goon than their PRs.

  37. ISO #287
    Wants It More Ephemera's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Twice Shrunk (#222)
    supposedly modbot roles might not be familiar to players from other communities and how setups are balanced on mu could be different from other sites which makes fakeclaims a lot harder for people not from mu/"mu-adjacent" (like syndicate or fol) sites
    i understand that for this year it's already been ruled out, but easy fix is just show a list of roles/modifiers that *can* show up.

  38. ISO #288
    Wants It More Variance's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Variance (#283)
    yeah actually, logistically speaking, a preference ordering would maybe be more difficult than i initially thought without impacting competitive integrity

    Actually gathering the preferences from each player would be extremely easy; there's already the google form that goes out where reps can put in their preferences for game length, date of game, etc so it'd be very easy to slip that in there.

    However the issue lies in the preferences for which factors (setup played, game length, date of game, etc) would be highest priority for the player. It can be argued that those who are more freely available are more easily able to place a higher priority on the setup they get placed in, compared to those who would be more likely to place things like date of game as the highest priority, technically giving them some edge because they have better odds of being placed in a setup better for them

    Workaround is to force setup choice preference to be the same priority value for all players, but this has issues of its own; put it as a priority anywhere other than forcibly last, then there is the possibility of a factor being lower priority than setup choice preference, despite the player wanting this factor to be higher priority. And if you make setup choice preference forcibly a last priority then it likely does not have much effect on which game the player is put in

    unfortunate that there's probably no 100% ideal solution there, because I think that players being much more likely to be put in games they actually enjoy is a really desirable factor. But I think there must surely be something that works to mitigate impacts on competitive integrity though? Really think this is something worth delving deeper into.
    for some reason i overlooked the idea of, rather than having people give their setup preference order and then putting them in a game that maximises their setup preference, just sort players into games without the preference as a consideration and then the setup can be chosen based off the most preferred setup for the players in that game

    it's not as potent as directly sorting people into games based off their setup preferences, but it also has very few (if any) flaws, and is significantly better than nothing at all

    sure this way some setups are going to be played more frequently than others, but that's not really a flaw. the absolute extreme you get is that all games played are just the same setup, which is unlikely to happen, but even if it did... so what

    a potential impact on competitive integrity is people choosing a certain setup because it's more townsided (they are likely to benefit as they are more likely to rand town), but that isn't an issue if the setups are designed to have very similar win %s for town and very similar win %s for mafia, as they should do regardless

    not really seeing any flaws with this idea other than making logistics marginally more complex - but it would only require putting in a preference selection thing in the google form sent out to each rep, and then calculating the most preferred setup for the players in each game, which is really simple. the upside of people getting to play a setup they are more likely to like significantly outweighs any potential downsides from what i can see

  39. ISO #289
    Wants It More Variance's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Variance (#288)
    sure this way some setups are going to be played more frequently than others, but that's not really a flaw. the absolute extreme you get is that all games played are just the same setup, which is unlikely to happen, but even if it did... so what
    i guess it can make the setup become stale if more frequently played than others

    but also the players are probably fine with it if they are choosing it as a preference

    it may be worth collecting preference info 3 times, once for first games, once for semis and once for finals, which will combat the issue of staleness somewhat as, if players are feeling a different setup, they can vote for something else

    but it doesnt really feel overly important because realistically the same setup is not going to be played hugely often if there's like 4 or 5 to choose from, unless one is blatantly more interesting and/or town sided than the others, which is a design issue tht shouldnt be happening regardless

  40. ISO #290
    Bandwagoner Taffy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Visorslash (#158)
    as an aside:

    we played a game recently on the org where one player was a d2 desperado

    if they killed mafia, thats it

    if they killed town, the shooter dies and the target gets the gun

    and they can shoot d3, etc until the desperado hits a wolf

    was quite good
    It is a very fun mechanic that deserves more exposure. For champs specifically though, I think it's harsh on the original desperado; it's already sad enough to die D1 or N1 but for them their rand basically means "find mafia D1 or die" (and they're very unlikely to advance if they don't).


    Quote Originally Posted by Arete (#203)
    okay, hang on, this might be a stupid/unworkable suggestion but

    I've seen several people (notably Ara, but not exclusively) raise the question of what's "fair" to non-MU-y sites, or what non-MU-y players would want

    has anyone tried just asking them? like I realize that this might be difficult (since they by-in-large aren't here in this thread) but it does kind of seem like a potential improvement over just guessing
    I'd like to add to this that when you're discussing roles for a semi-open setup, perhaps look at all participating communities and ask which roles regularly feature in their games. Most roles discussed are watered-down versions of classic roles and that's very unexciting to rand on top of being potentially confusing. I'm sorry for being negative, but the Amrock 14er just doesn't spark joy. You're a doctor, but you might die if you read wrong and also that one time in the game it really matters neener neener mafia gets the trump card. Might as well play mountainous at that point, at least that's egalitarian for all players.



    Quote Originally Posted by Arapocalypse (#207)
    Quote Originally Posted by Twice Shrunk (#202)
    counterpoint: green peeks bad
    Agreed; the most dangerous thing about a cop isn't their ability to find 1 mafia, but their ability to possibly lock the game through greens!!!
    I'd argue that staying alive long enough to lock up the game when you get a role like that is an essential FM skill and so is PR-hunting, which is pointless in a game where the PRs don't actually pose a threat.


    Quote Originally Posted by Arapocalypse (#210)
    No, no watchers!!!!

    Unless you're talking about a mafia watcher whch would be okay, but no town watchers!!
    Ok this is not directly related to this topic, but I'd love to hear the story behind this

  41. ISO #291
    Wants It More Variance's Avatar
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    One of the following setups will be chosen at random. Players will not be told which setup this is, however information as to what setup has been chosen can be gathered throughout the course of the game, through known roles or otherwise.

    The roles of Mafia players will not be specified upon dying (flipless), however Town roles will flip as normal.

    Town Jack of All Trades has 9x Doctor, 9x Motion Detect and 9x Roleblock. Town Jacks Of All Trades must use all three actions before repeating an action, i.e. they are rotating. This does not mean they must use the actions in the same order every time.

    Mafia Jack of All Trades has 2x Roleblock and 1x Role Cop.

    Protective Focus Investigative Focus Manipulative Focus JOAT Focus Miscellaneous 1 Miscellaneous 2 Miscellaneous 3
    Town Odd Night Doctor

    Town Even Night Jailkeeper


    10x Vanilla Town

    3x Mafia Goon
    Town Odd Night Tracker

    Town Even Night Vanilla Cop

    Town 2-shot Doctor

    9x Vanilla Town

    Mafia Even Night Watcher

    Mafia Odd Night Roleblocker


    Mafia Goon
    Town Odd Night Roleblocker

    Town Even Night Jailkeeper

    Town 1-shot Vigilante (N2+)

    9x Vanilla Town


    Mafia 3-shot Roleblocker

    Mafia 1-shot Jailkeeper

    Mafia Goon
    2x Town Jack of All Trades

    10x Vanilla Town

    Mafia Jack of All Trades

    2x Mafia Goon

    Town 1-shot Vigilante (N2+)

    Town Jack of All Trades

    Town Odd Night Doctor

    9x Vanilla Town

    Mafia Roleblocker

    Mafia Tracker

    Mafia Goon
    Town Odd Night Roleblocker

    Town Even Night Vanilla Cop


    10x Vanilla Town

    2x Mafia Healer

    Mafia Goon
    Town 2-shot Doctor

    Town Odd Night Tracker

    10x Vanilla Town


    2x Mafia Healer

    Mafia Goon


    i decided i think an overlapping semi open is better than open due to the opportunity to make it unknown to town how many Town Power Roles there are (2 or 3), which decreases the likelihood of early massclaim for any setups where there are 3 town power roles. you could do opens which use only 2 town PRs but i think it's more interesting to have 3 town PR games in the mix

    also i think semiopens are just more interesting and less linear than opens in general, the element of discovery is a big part of what makes the game interesting at least for me

    non-overlapping semi-opens, while not having the issue of some restrictions in setup design, has the issue of allowing town to discover the setup quickly (i.e. after 1 town PR claims or flips), unless you make both Mafia and Town flipless, but making Town flipless is not a good idea as it incentivises massclaim

    mafia are flipless in this setup to prevent town from gaining information as to what the setup is too quickly

    the overall setup is designed such that there are 8 possible town roles that can appear: 1-shot Vig (N2+), Town Odd Night Doctor, Town Even Night Jailkeeper, Town Even Night Vanilla Cop, Town 2-shot Doctor, Town Odd Night Tracker, Town Odd Night Roleblocker, and Town JOAT.

    each town role appears once in one setup and once in another, with the exception of Town JOAT which appears twice in one setup and once in another. This is done so that, when a town PR flips/claims, the Town still doesn't know exactly which setup they're in, so the discovery element isn't ruined too quickly

    the overall setup is also designed such that, for the two different setups each role is in, one setup has 2 Town PRs and the other has 3 Town PRs, making it significantly more difficult for town to know if there are 2 or 3 Town PRs after 1 town pr has flipped/claimed (helping to reduce odds of massclaim). The only exception to this rule is Town 1-shot Vigilante

    mafia roles were then determined appropriately based on what the town power roles were in each setup, as well as with the setup's focus in mind.

    the setups cover a wide range of different roles and focuses, so players have to adapt and use skillsets specific to the setup

    the overall setup has been designed to have approximately equal town and mafia equity across each individual setup, which has been easier to do here compared to matrices due to there being less constraints and less setups than most matrices (any that are 4x4 or bigger). less constraints means each setup can be more easily crafted to be well designed

    as someone is likely to ask why 2x Mafia Healer is present in both the Miscellaneous 2 and Miscellaneous 3 setups: the main purpose of 2x Mafia Healer in Miscellaneous 2 is to give Town Even Night Vanilla Cop sufficient utility. The reason why 2x Mafia Healer is also present in Miscellaneous 3 is because it means that, from Mafia's perspective, it cannot be determined whether the setup is Miscellaneous 2 or Miscellaneous 3 at the start of the game. This is important for two reasons: one, because Miscellaneous 2 and 3 have somewhat weaker town utilities compared to the other setups, making mafia unable to establish which setup it is provides an indirect nerf to mafia to somewhat make up for some lacking in town's utility. Two, it means that mafia will virtually always be unable to action a risk-free kill should Miscellaneous 2 be the setup that rands, because there is the possibility of 2-shot Doctor from Miscellaneous 3

    ok ill shut up now, feedback and questions much appreciated. will commence testing for this setup after ive received some feedback and have made any necessary changes

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    Wants It More Variance's Avatar
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    updated


    • Setup Type: Semi-open
    • Players: 15
    • Voting: Votes are locked when Town must eliminate correctly
    • Role Reveals: Mafia flips only show the alignment of the Mafia player, whereas Town flips show the full role of the Town player

    One of the following setups will be chosen at random. Players will not be told which setup this is, however information as to what setup has been chosen can be gathered throughout the course of the game, through known roles or otherwise.

    Protect Investigate Manipulate Versatile Hands-on Obstruct Precaution
    Town Odd Night Doctor

    Town Even Night Jailkeeper


    10x Vanilla Town

    3x Mafia Goon
    Town Odd Night Tracker

    Town Even Night Vanilla Cop

    Town 2-shot Doctor

    9x Vanilla Town

    Mafia Even Night Watcher

    Mafia Odd Night Roleblocker


    Mafia Goon
    Town Odd Night Roleblocker

    Town Even Night Jailkeeper

    Town 1-shot Vigilante (N2+)

    9x Vanilla Town


    Mafia 3-shot Roleblocker

    Mafia 1-shot Jailkeeper

    Mafia Goon
    2x Town Jack of All Trades

    10x Vanilla Town

    Mafia Jack of All Trades

    2x Mafia Goon

    Town 1-shot Vigilante (N2+)

    Town Jack of All Trades

    Town Odd Night Doctor

    9x Vanilla Town

    Mafia Roleblocker

    Mafia Tracker

    Mafia Goon
    Town Odd Night Roleblocker

    Town Even Night Vanilla Cop


    10x Vanilla Town

    2x Mafia Healer

    Mafia Goon
    Town 2-shot Doctor

    Town Odd Night Tracker

    10x Vanilla Town


    2x Mafia Healer

    Mafia Goon


    Town Jack of All Trades has 9x Doctor, 9x Motion Detect and 9x Roleblock. Town Jacks Of All Trades must use all three actions before repeating an action, i.e. they are rotating. This does not mean they must use the actions in the same order every time.

    Mafia Jack of All Trades has 2x Roleblock and 1x Role Cop.

  43. ISO #293
    Galaxy Brain Esooa's Avatar
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    mountainous + 1

    setup: 16 players, all VT except one player who's a pre-killed treestump (can not die in any circumstances, vote doesn't have weight), and they don't know it but wolves do

    balanced checked by @katze

  44. ISO #294
    spec chat hero iaafr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Posts
    35,317
    AKA
    fluffy rabbit
    Gender
    Quote Originally Posted by Esooa (#293)
    mountainous + 1

    setup: 16 players, all VT except one player who's a pre-killed treestump (can not die in any circumstances, vote doesn't have weight), and they don't know it but wolves do

    balanced checked by @katze
    agreed

  45. ISO #295
    Season 8 Champze katze's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2020
    Location
    dormant
    Posts
    18,664
    Timezone
    UTC-04:00
    Community
    FoL
    AKA
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRRsXxE1KVY
    Pronouns
    gender is a scam use whatever u want
    Gender
    Quote Originally Posted by Esooa (#293)
    mountainous + 1

    setup: 16 players, all VT except one player who's a pre-killed treestump (can not die in any circumstances, vote doesn't have weight), and they don't know it but wolves do

    balanced checked by @katze
    all vt

    no wolves

    champs is wolfsided this is how we fix it

    send it

  46. ISO #296
    Wants It More Variance's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2019
    Posts
    8,222
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    UTC+00:00
    Pronouns
    he/him/his/his/himself
    Gender
    Quote Originally Posted by Esooa (#293)
    mountainous + 1

    setup: 16 players, all VT except one player who's a pre-killed treestump (can not die in any circumstances, vote doesn't have weight), and they don't know it but wolves do

    balanced checked by @katze
    I think it would better if wolves didn’t know and they have to try and kill the treestump to find out

    Otherwise incredible concept

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Unlyncher

The Uneliminator is an independently aligned player whose win condition is to ensure that a specific player is not eliminated for the entire duration of the game.