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Thread: Offseason Champs Feedback

  1. ISO #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Relm (#63)
    My other controversial opinion is that substitutes only have disadvantages, and anyone I have seen in spec chat who has ever said otherwise has refused to explain what advantages they tangibly get beyond vague tripe.
    Quote Originally Posted by Relm (#20)

    Stop stigmatizing subbing in and encouraging lower consideration for subs in spec chat
    @Relm

    Claim: "Substitutes only have disadvantages...[anyone] who has ever said otherwise has refused to explain what advantages they tangibly get beyond vague tripe"

    I decided to examine data from seasons 4 to 10. My premise is that this should provide an adequate sample size, and also encapsulates the most recent seasons, with the most recent changes.

    Let's examine what I found. I want to first look at progression to semi-finals and wildcard games.



    The rows are labelled, and the bottom row is used as a multiplier. For example, in season 4, you are 0.27 times less likely to advance if you are a substitute, but in season 8, you are 1.68 times more likely to advance if you are a substitute. For ease of viewing, I have highlighted boxes green to indicate that your claim is true, and I have highlighted boxes red to indicate that your claim is false.

    Cliffnotes:
    • Seasons 4, 5, 9, and 10 would support your claim. Seasons 6, 7 and 8 would not.
    • When pooling all data, a player is actually about the same likelihood to advance to semis/wcs if they are a substitute compared to if they are not a substitute, see below picture:







    So far, it looks like substitutes are not significanlly disadvantaged, however, let's look at the finale data to confirm. Ultimately, each players wants to be crowned the champion, so we need to ensure that there isn't an unfair bias for finale progression:



    The same methodology is used, though progression to finale now also encapsulates those who substitued into semi-finals or wildcards, which adds them to the sub-pool for that season. I have also added a separate box that exclusively looks at likelihood to advance to finale if you are a semi-final/wc substitute only (i.e, not a qualifier sub, but is a semi/wc sub).

    Cliffnotes:
    • This data does not support your claim.
    • In fact, in all seasons apart from season 4, you are far more likely to advance to finale if you are a substitute, than if you are not.
    • In the past 6 seasons, you are significantly more likely to advance to finale as a substitute than not. In some seasons, you are 4 times, or even 6 times more likely to advance to finale if you're a subsitute compared to if you are not a substitute. Let's look at how that looks overall:


    • Overall, you are 2.31 times more likely to advance as a substitute to finale than if you are not.
    • From seasons 4-10, you are slightly less likely to advance to finale if you are a semi-final/wc substitute compared to if you are not, however: this pattern is not observed in more recent seasons (see below picture), and, we have also observed a wildcard/semi-final substitute be crowned the overall champion (Beck, season 6) outside of more recent seasons.
    • Overall, you have a 20% chance to advance to finale if you a substitute, but only an 8.6% chance to advance to finale if you are not a substitute.

    Interestingly, it actually appears that later seasons (i.e, seasons 7-10 and not seasons 4-10), would tend to be even more supportive of a player advancing if they are a substitute compared to if they are not a substitute:






    Conclusions to be drawn:

    Semi-final/wildcard & finale progression data would not support the initial premise, that: "substitutes are only disadvantaged". Substitutes are in fact advantaged in terms of overall advancement on a large scale.
    • You are more likely to advance to finale as a qualifier substitute than a non-substitute.
    • You have about the same semi-final/wildcard advancement chances as a substitute than as a non-substitute, and recent times are historically more favourable to substitutes than in the past.
    • Your finale advancement chances and/or 'champs winning 'chances are not reduced by subbing into semi-finals.


    This data encapsulates approximately 1,000 qualifers and 125 substitutes. Whilst we can say based on the numbers, that a player is more likely to be advanced if they are a substitute, particularly in recent history, that does not mean that disadvantages do not exist. As an example, when pooling the data, I counted numerous instances of a player subbing into a mafia slot, who was on the ropes, only to die ~12-24 hours later in the execution despite arguably posting well. These players rarely advanced. I cannot comment on your situation, as I do not know the specifics. Outliers exist. As for whether you historically only received "vague tripe" in response to this claim in the past, I also could not say.

    So, disadvantages do exist. However, statistically and on a broader scale, a player is actually advantaged as a substitute, not disadvantaged.

    I would also be encouraging of people to peer-review this data for verification, and perhaps include season 1-3. Feel free to DM this account for the spreadsheet to check the working. Whilst we have observed an advantage for later seasons, perhaps this were not true in earlier seasons, particularly as season 4 was an outlier in the data. Ultimately though, this would not sway your current intentions of ensuring that future sub-ins aren't unfavourable, though.

    All in all, based on what I have observed I would deem the statement that "substitutes only have disadvantages" to be incorrect.

  2. ISO #52
    Thread Analyst RIS's Avatar
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    If it helps remove controversy, I'm willing to determine all the finalists unilaterally this year.

  3. ISO #53
    Soul Reader Ultra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Champs Stats (#50)
    Quote Originally Posted by Ultra (#48)
    Quote Originally Posted by Ultra (#45)
    -snip-
    To play devil's advocate to my own proposition, this might not be a historical trend, S9 saw about half of the jury picks that weren't ranked 1-4 see a finals game
    @Ultra

    Claim: 'the vast majority of 3rd/4th placers go forward anyhow'

    Taking your numbers at face value, and looking at all of the data availale for what we are looking at (semi-final progression, no direct finale advancements; aka, S7-S10):

    Season 10:
    Third place: 5/9 advaned
    Fourth place: 9/9 advanced

    Season 9:
    'About half of the jury picks were not placed 1-4'

    Season 8:
    Third place: 9/10 advanced
    Fourth place: 5/10 advanced

    Season 7:
    Third place: 8/11 advanced
    Fourth place: 5/11 advanced




    If we saw a consistent pattern of, say, 9/10 or greater for both third and fourth progressing, I would agree with you that this would be a 'vast majority'. However, we don't. Even for third place, as you pointed out, only 5 of the 9 third placers advanced last year.

    I would say that this makes your claim incorrect. I suppose an argument could be had as to whether jury were correct or incorrect in making these decisions, as could one be made for players being correct or incorrect for placing them 3rd or 4th to begin with.

    However, I would disagree with the characterisation that the vast majority of 3rd/4th placers advance based on this information. I suppose 'vast majority' is up for debate, though.
    The advancement rate in that bracket averages at around 80% or so overall.

    There is also is vs ought, e.g., even if you don't consider 80% a vast majority, if judgement on a panel should be prioritized over 3rd placers performance wise

    What I'd be interested in determining, is historically how this pool has performed statistically vs jury picks that didn't place 1-4th in their respective qualifiers. Because if they do perform better, to me that's a possible justification, on top of other considerations

  4. ISO #54
    GOAT Tier hollowkatt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ultra (#53)
    Quote Originally Posted by Champs Stats (#50)
    Quote Originally Posted by Ultra (#48)
    Quote Originally Posted by Ultra (#45)
    -snip-
    To play devil's advocate to my own proposition, this might not be a historical trend, S9 saw about half of the jury picks that weren't ranked 1-4 see a finals game
    @Ultra

    Claim: 'the vast majority of 3rd/4th placers go forward anyhow'

    Taking your numbers at face value, and looking at all of the data availale for what we are looking at (semi-final progression, no direct finale advancements; aka, S7-S10):

    Season 10:
    Third place: 5/9 advaned
    Fourth place: 9/9 advanced

    Season 9:
    'About half of the jury picks were not placed 1-4'

    Season 8:
    Third place: 9/10 advanced
    Fourth place: 5/10 advanced

    Season 7:
    Third place: 8/11 advanced
    Fourth place: 5/11 advanced




    If we saw a consistent pattern of, say, 9/10 or greater for both third and fourth progressing, I would agree with you that this would be a 'vast majority'. However, we don't. Even for third place, as you pointed out, only 5 of the 9 third placers advanced last year.

    I would say that this makes your claim incorrect. I suppose an argument could be had as to whether jury were correct or incorrect in making these decisions, as could one be made for players being correct or incorrect for placing them 3rd or 4th to begin with.

    However, I would disagree with the characterisation that the vast majority of 3rd/4th placers advance based on this information. I suppose 'vast majority' is up for debate, though.
    The advancement rate in that bracket averages at around 80% or so overall.

    There is also is vs ought, e.g., even if you don't consider 80% a vast majority, if judgement on a panel should be prioritized over 3rd placers performance wise

    What I'd be interested in determining, is historically how this pool has performed statistically vs jury picks that didn't place 1-4th in their respective qualifiers. Because if they do perform better, to me that's a possible justification, on top of other considerations
    Seems to me the data over the last 4 seasons shows that advancing 3rd and 4th automatically like 1st and 2nd makes the most sense. It would free up the jury to advance more "forgotten" players, if that's something desirable.

    If it's not something desirable eliminate the jury all together because the rate they advance 3/4 basically fills semis and finals anyways, and eliminates the need for a jury to examine play to determine if there were worthy players who didn't advance via player vote.

    I also think wolf wins are punished by town players but that's a rant for another day.

    I also also think that since I don't really play any more I don't really care, but I wanted to jump in anyways because this is a thing that seems to come up every year in some capacity and I had thoughts.

  5. ISO #55
    Galaxy Brain Twice Shrunk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haze with a Z (#46)
    It sounds like the better solution is to advance 4th place and let the 3rd place people battle it out in the jury based on the evidence
    i legit wanna see this implemented

    (for humor reasons of course)

  6. ISO #56
    Galaxy Brain Twice Shrunk's Avatar
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    idk who champs stats is but

  7. ISO #57
    GOAT Tier Variance's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Twice Shrunk (#56)
    idk who champs stats is but
    prob jimmy


    neutron

  8. ISO #58
    Soul Reader JaggedJimmyJay's Avatar
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    lol

    I just want to state that I am not Champs Stats.

  9. ISO #59
    vast tonal gap Lissa's Avatar Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by hollowkatt (#54)
    It would free up the jury to advance more "forgotten" players, if that's something desirable.
    does it not literally do the opposite?

  10. ISO #60
    Special Agent tbh Boquise's Avatar
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  11. ISO #61
    Galaxy Brain Jaleb's Avatar
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    Champs should just be a mash. It's easier to compare players when they're in the same game.

  12. ISO #62
    Season 8 Champze katze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Champs Stats (#51)
    i think something that you're failing to consider is when the subs happen in these games

    the difficulty of evaluating a sub who subs in on day 4, imo, is WAY higher than one who replaces in on night 1. and id assume a decent chunk of these subs were probably phase 1 subs?

    i get the claim is "subs are disadvantaged" but the context in which they are saying this, imo, is somewhat important (i personally disagree that "subs are disadvantaged" as a blanket statement but i do think relms specific subin last season plausibly was? i dont think disadvantaged is the right word but ive already talked about it earlier iirc)

  13. ISO #63
    Season 8 Champze katze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hollowkatt (#54)
    Seems to me the data over the last 4 seasons shows that advancing 3rd and 4th automatically like 1st and 2nd makes the most sense. It would free up the jury to advance more "forgotten" players, if that's something desirable.

    If it's not something desirable eliminate the jury all together because the rate they advance 3/4 basically fills semis and finals anyways, and eliminates the need for a jury to examine play to determine if there were worthy players who didn't advance via player vote.

    I also think wolf wins are punished by town players but that's a rant for another day.

    I also also think that since I don't really play any more I don't really care, but I wanted to jump in anyways because this is a thing that seems to come up every year in some capacity and I had thoughts.
    wrt auto advancing 3rd/4th: i disagree; if four players were auto advanced from each qual then the jury would only have like... 5-9 players to advance (depending on how many quals there were that season, 5 players in a 10 game season +/- 4 per extra/less game) and i dont think there's a single season where even 10 players outside of each quals' top 4 is a comfortable amount for a jury to work with, even if in the end a lot of these players will be advanced anyway

    wolf wins being punished by town players is probably somewhat true but im not really sure what can be done about this, as long as the jury remains impartial i think they should in theory remedy this though? i might be slightly misunderstanding the point here tho

  14. ISO #64
    Wants It More Wiml's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by katze (#62)
    Quote Originally Posted by Champs Stats (#51)
    :nerd:
    i think something that you're failing to consider is when the subs happen in these games

    the difficulty of evaluating a sub who subs in on day 4, imo, is WAY higher than one who replaces in on night 1. and id assume a decent chunk of these subs were probably phase 1 subs?

    i get the claim is "subs are disadvantaged" but the context in which they are saying this, imo, is somewhat important (i personally disagree that "subs are disadvantaged" as a blanket statement but i do think relms specific subin last season plausibly was? i dont think disadvantaged is the right word but ive already talked about it earlier iirc)
    I mostly agree with this but I don't really think it's a solvable issue or necessarily even an issue at all beyond quals (where I think the jury is already fine at dealing with it).

    Imo if you're subbing into a semis or finals game beyond the first couple of day phases you should usually be aware that you're probably not going to have a good shot to advance / win champs (respectively) and be able to decide if you want to offer to sub into the game with that information in mind.

    The only real suggestion I have is to make sure people are aware of the day number of the game that they're given the chance to sub into before they offer to sub (if this isn't already done) so they can choose not to sub in if they don't care to play without good advancement chances or if they would prefer to wait for a chance for a different sub opportunity.

  15. ISO #65
    vast tonal gap Lissa's Avatar Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiml (#64)
    Quote Originally Posted by katze (#62)
    Quote Originally Posted by Champs Stats (#51)
    i think something that you're failing to consider is when the subs happen in these games

    the difficulty of evaluating a sub who subs in on day 4, imo, is WAY higher than one who replaces in on night 1. and id assume a decent chunk of these subs were probably phase 1 subs?

    i get the claim is "subs are disadvantaged" but the context in which they are saying this, imo, is somewhat important (i personally disagree that "subs are disadvantaged" as a blanket statement but i do think relms specific subin last season plausibly was? i dont think disadvantaged is the right word but ive already talked about it earlier iirc)
    I mostly agree with this but I don't really think it's a solvable issue or necessarily even an issue at all beyond quals (where I think the jury is already fine at dealing with it).

    Imo if you're subbing into a semis or finals game beyond the first couple of day phases you should usually be aware that you're probably not going to have a good shot to advance / win champs (respectively) and be able to decide if you want to offer to sub into the game with that information in mind.

    The only real suggestion I have is to make sure people are aware of the day number of the game that they're given the chance to sub into before they offer to sub (if this isn't already done) so they can choose not to sub in if they don't care to play without good advancement chances or if they would prefer to wait for a chance for a different sub opportunity.
    this already is done for this exact reason, because I do agree with you

    subbing into a lategame slot is disadvantageous the vast majority of the time

    sub requests, as part of the game structure information, include the current phase

  16. ISO #66
    The Fish of Town Justice Achromatic's Avatar
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    Oh here's another

    Thoughts on post cap lifting 90 minutes or 2 hours before eod? Would make eod feel a bit less rushed? I have played in a lot of games that did this and it felt nice.

  17. ISO #67
    Soul Reader Violet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Achromatic (#66)
    Oh here's another

    Thoughts on post cap lifting 90 minutes or 2 hours before eod? Would make eod feel a bit less rushed? I have played in a lot of games that did this and it felt nice.
    Sounds good to me tbh

  18. ISO #68
    GOAT Tier Variance's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Achromatic (#66)
    Oh here's another

    Thoughts on post cap lifting 90 minutes or 2 hours before eod? Would make eod feel a bit less rushed? I have played in a lot of games that did this and it felt nice.
    Sounds good, I can trial this in the test game I’m doing - will go with the extreme end of 2 hours so we can see what effect it has better

  19. ISO #69
    Soul Reader JaggedJimmyJay's Avatar
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    I think the first time post caps were implemented, it was a two-hour lift. Season 6 might be a good case study to examine. I am not personally opposed.

  20. ISO #70
    GOAT Tier neopest's Avatar
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    Personally, I like the idea Ara suggested better with a hard post-cap and then a post limit extension at EOD. The thing is that the post cap lifting 2 hours before EOD doesn't matter quite as much in normal games, but in champs people will be threadcamping constantly and I think we will just run into the extended issue we have with lifting the post cap 1 hour before. Not opposed to trying it, but am not very optimistic.

  21. ISO #71
    GOAT Tier Variance's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Variance (#68)
    Quote Originally Posted by Achromatic (#66)
    Oh here's another

    Thoughts on post cap lifting 90 minutes or 2 hours before eod? Would make eod feel a bit less rushed? I have played in a lot of games that did this and it felt nice.
    Sounds good, I can trial this in the test game I’m doing - will go with the extreme end of 2 hours so we can see what effect it has better
    decided i am not gunna try it yet actually cuz i am already experimenting with postcap extension and the two kinda coincide, would prefer single variable test

    but i'll probably do another test game where i can trial that on its own, or someone else can

  22. ISO #72
    Thread Analyst juliet's Avatar
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    Ara, you mentioned how the slow mode experiment in spec chat was unpopular, putting it mildly lol, but something else new in spec chat last year was fmpov a success: triggering the Be Kind guidelines every time someone new entered spec chat. Having spec'd for many years now I felt this last year was MUCH better in terms of people not trashing players, especially the trashing that used to go on and on with many people joining in about one player or another. It was so much more fun as a spectator last year because all that was missing, and hopefully players who came in and vanity searched felt better about what people said. Hope you do the same in 2024!

  23. ISO #73
    Thread Analyst angrysheriff's Avatar
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    I don't like the idea of extending the post cap lift. Even if it's two hours most players will try to stay online for the full two hours which would lead to more of the content being near EOD and make it harder for people who can't make the full two-hour EOD to stay relevant and up-to-date.

    A second post cap that sets in an hour before EOD would be a much better solution to perceived EOD chaos. But FWIW I enjoyed the EOD chaos and think last year's system best balanced the thrill of EOD and allowing postcapped players to share their thoughts without demanding too much of a time commitment.

  24. ISO #74
    Hype! Arapocalypse's Avatar Discord Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by Achromatic (#66)
    Oh here's another

    Thoughts on post cap lifting 90 minutes or 2 hours before eod? Would make eod feel a bit less rushed? I have played in a lot of games that did this and it felt nice.
    2 hours was trialed in season 6 and we ended up shortening it to 1 hour in all the seasons afterwards; if people wish to look at test cases on how it'd work in champs, we do have a whole season for that!!!!

    Season 6 can be found here, if anyone wants to do stats on it or something: https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums...nship-Season-6

    It did also have a 175 postcap instead of a 125 postcap, which people may want to take into account!!!

  25. ISO #75
    Hype! Arapocalypse's Avatar Discord Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by neopest (#70)
    Personally, I like the idea Ara suggested better with a hard post-cap and then a post limit extension at EOD. The thing is that the post cap lifting 2 hours before EOD doesn't matter quite as much in normal games, but in champs people will be threadcamping constantly and I think we will just run into the extended issue we have with lifting the post cap 1 hour before. Not opposed to trying it, but am not very optimistic.
    Variance and Alexa will be trialing EoD postcap extension in their setup test games, so hopefully that goes well!!!

    Very much not guaranteeing it'll be in champs, as it greatly depends on how it works in practice, but it's certainly a consideration!!

    Anyone else is also very welcome to test out postcap extension if you've got the time (it does require you having to be online at every EoD to manually extend the postcap), just let me know how it goes!!!

  26. ISO #76
    Hype! Arapocalypse's Avatar Discord Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by juliet (#72)
    Ara, you mentioned how the slow mode experiment in spec chat was unpopular, putting it mildly lol, but something else new in spec chat last year was fmpov a success: triggering the Be Kind guidelines every time someone new entered spec chat. Having spec'd for many years now I felt this last year was MUCH better in terms of people not trashing players, especially the trashing that used to go on and on with many people joining in about one player or another. It was so much more fun as a spectator last year because all that was missing, and hopefully players who came in and vanity searched felt better about what people said. Hope you do the same in 2024!
    Most likely, yeah!

    Curious if anyone has thoughts on the message itself, though? Some feedback on it included it being too long, too spammy, too basic, etc.

    For reference:

    "Welcome to specchat! Before you begin, please remember this primary rule for spectating the tournament:

    Be kind.

    The people in Champs signed up to play Mafia, not to be criticized or mocked by spectators. The audience aspect is a core feature of the tournament, but remember that the players are people and will read your comments when they get into specchat.

    While you are free to discuss which alignment you think a player is, or if they’re making a good or bad play, keep the following in mind:
    a) Give players the benefit of the doubt - regardless of alignment they are playing under immense pressure in the thread versus the zero-stakes environment of spec chat; and,
    b) There are kind and unkind ways to critique mafia plays, and if you’re not sure if your comment might come across as too harsh post-game, err on the side of not saying or rephrasing it."
    Last edited by Arapocalypse; January 30th, 2024 at 08:57 PM.

  27. ISO #77
    Hype! Arapocalypse's Avatar Discord Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arapocalypse (#74)
    Quote Originally Posted by Achromatic (#66)
    Oh here's another

    Thoughts on post cap lifting 90 minutes or 2 hours before eod? Would make eod feel a bit less rushed? I have played in a lot of games that did this and it felt nice.
    2 hours was trialed in season 6 and we ended up shortening it to 1 hour in all the seasons afterwards; if people wish to look at test cases on how it'd work in champs, we do have a whole season for that!!!!

    Season 6 can be found here, if anyone wants to do stats on it or something: https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums...nship-Season-6

    It did also have a 175 postcap instead of a 125 postcap, which people may want to take into account!!!
    Actually just checked and 2 hours was also used in seasons 7 and 8 too, so three seasons of it!!!!!

    We only decreased to 1 hour in season 9!!

  28. ISO #78
    The Fish of Town Justice Achromatic's Avatar
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    I was literally in season 7 and I forgot, amazing

  29. ISO #79
    Soul Reader JaggedJimmyJay's Avatar
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    How do we feel about a Bronze Medal game? It doesn't have to be named that.

    Semifinalists that don't make the finale still get one more ride to claim the bronze (if we interpret the silver medal to the finale losing team, and the gold to be the finale winning team). There are a number of ways this could be organized, as in determining who plays or when it would happen, so I would ask that we leave *that* discussion for next.

    First -- does it even sound fun? I think so. I'm not sure how others feel. It could be regarded as a second-rate consolation prize by some, I acknowledge. Or it could be seen as a fun way to go for one last bit of glory.

  30. ISO #80
    Soul Reader Ty4on's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JaggedJimmyJay (#79)
    How do we feel about a Bronze Medal game? It doesn't have to be named that.
    The game for semifinalists who were robbed

  31. ISO #81
    GOAT Tier hollowkatt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JaggedJimmyJay (#79)
    How do we feel about a Bronze Medal game? It doesn't have to be named that.

    Semifinalists that don't make the finale still get one more ride to claim the bronze (if we interpret the silver medal to the finale losing team, and the gold to be the finale winning team). There are a number of ways this could be organized, as in determining who plays or when it would happen, so I would ask that we leave *that* discussion for next.

    First -- does it even sound fun? I think so. I'm not sure how others feel. It could be regarded as a second-rate consolation prize by some, I acknowledge. Or it could be seen as a fun way to go for one last bit of glory.
    What would be the purpose of a bronze game? The purpose of champs is to crown a single best player in the tournament through player voting so a bronze game doesn't make much sense to me, you're not winning anything for playing in it/winning it.

    I think if Champs also had a team award that went along with it, like in addition to crowning a singleton champ the winning team also gets an award, and then the losing team gets a silver award, then sure a bronze game makes sense. But even then it's not like in the olympics where your team had a chance to advance to the gold medal match and failed to convert.

    I think the nature of mafia being a "team sport" that devolves to an individual sport as the game progresses does not lend itself to a bronze medal match type of situation.

    Arguable though that awarding the #2 and #3 vote getters from the finals silver and bronze is a thing that could be done idk tho

  32. ISO #82
    Soul Reader JaggedJimmyJay's Avatar
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    You're certainly right that a bronze medal game wouldn't contribute to the purpose of naming a champion. It may contribute to the larger purpose though -- community engagement in forum Mafia. So that's the real purpose:

    Fun
    Recognition
    Spectating material

  33. ISO #83
    Hype! Arapocalypse's Avatar Discord Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by JaggedJimmyJay (#82)
    You're certainly right that a bronze medal game wouldn't contribute to the purpose of naming a champion. It may contribute to the larger purpose though -- community engagement in forum Mafia. So that's the real purpose:

    Fun
    Recognition
    Spectating material
    Fun - would it be though, to have a semifinal-level game after a lot of semifinals players have already put a lot into their semifinal, and finale often can feel a little more exhausting for people after that?

    If we're talking about the larger purpose of community engagement, will say that we are hopefully looking to revive the game of backups, for after (or possibly before) the finale, assuming we've got at least 1 organizer who's still got the energy to do it by then!! Would ideally give those players a chance to have some fun/recognition/create some spectating material of their own!
    Last edited by Arapocalypse; February 7th, 2024 at 12:34 AM.

  34. ISO #84
    Straight White Male wiggles1993's Avatar
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    Organising a finale was already so difficult and messed with the competitiveness of it, good luck trying to gather the exact players of the losing semi finalists for a game that has much less at stake.

  35. ISO #85
    ༼ つ ;-; ༽つ give smith another day mhsmith0's Avatar Game Manager
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    It'd probably be impossible to bring in everyone from the semis who didn't advance, but it might be possible to open up an invite slot and try to at least get a bunch of them into a game, basically open up the offer and see who wants to show.

  36. ISO #86
    ༼ つ ;-; ༽つ give smith another day mhsmith0's Avatar Game Manager
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    I can also confirm that possibly to the surprise of some, I am NOT in fact the person posting on the champs stats account
    maybe

  37. ISO #87
    Soul Reader JaggedJimmyJay's Avatar
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    Doesn't seem like a thing, so nevermind. Oh well

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